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Today is July 7 2016.
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It's 8:45 local time.
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We are now located at Dalecha locality.
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Very close to Debire Birhan town.
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we are going to talk to the priest with resposible around this area.
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He will introduse himself shortly.
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I'm Solomon Belay Faris from Adiss Ababa University the department of science and mathematics education.
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we'll start the interviewe with Aba.
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አባ እንኳን ደህና መጡ።
Welcome, Abba
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እግዚአብሄር ይስጥልን ለዚህ መጠይቅ ፈቃደኛ ሆነው በመምጣትዎ
Thank you for coming to give us this interview willingly
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ቅድም እንዳስተዋወቅኩዎት ይሄ ብዙ ጥቅም ያለው ቃለ መጠይቅ ነው።
As I told you earlier, this is an important interview
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ግን ዘና ብለው የሚያውቁትን ነገር ያካፍሉናል።
Just relax and share with us what you know
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አሁን መጀመሪያ ራስዎትን ያስተዋውቁ። ስምዊትን፣ የትውልድ ቦታዎትን/አገሮትን፣ የቤተሰብዎትን ሁኔታ ያስተዋውቁን።
Now may you introduce yourself first: your name, place of birth, your family background
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በስመ አብ በወልድ በመንፈስ ቅዱስ አሃዱ አምላክ አሜን።
In the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit One God, Amen.
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ስሜ አባ ተክለ ዮሃንስ ገብረ ወልድ እባላለሁ።
My name is Abba TakleYohannes GabraWald
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የትውልድ ቦታዬ ደብረ ሊባኖስ
My birthplace is DabraLibanos
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በዚያው ዙረያ ላይ አርሞን ቀበሌ የምትባል ቦታ ነው ልዩ ቦታዋ
To be exact, the particular Kebele is Armon
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በዚያ ተወልጄ መንፈሳዊ ትምህርትን በገዳማት ካጠናሁ በኋላ
I was born there and having studied spiritual education in the monasteries,
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ወደ ምናኔ አለም ነው የገባሁት።
I started ascetic life
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ከመነሻዬ ይሄንን ይመስላል።
Such was my beginning
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ወደ ምናኔ አለም ሲገባ ብዙ ቅዱሳን መካናትን ካየሁ በኋላ
Once I entered the world of ascetic life, I have visited many holy places.
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በዚሁ በደብረ ገነት ሳራ ቅዱስ ሚካኤል በአሁኑ ሰአት ኩክ የለሽ በሚባለው ቦታ
I came here at Dabra Ganat Sara St. Michael, which now is called, Kuk-yalash,
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በመግባት ከዚያ ወደ ደብረ ከርቤ ዳግማዊ ጎሎጎታ ገዳም ተብሎ ተሰይሞ ዛሬ
and then at Dabra Karbe which is now called the Second Golgota monastery
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ይህንን ታሪክ ለማንሳት በተዘጋጀንበት
where we are prepared to remember this history
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በዚያ ቦታ የምናኔ ህይወት አሳልፌአለው።
there I led ascetic life
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እስካሁን ድረስም በዚያ ህይወት ውስጥ ነው ያለሁት፤ በዚያ ቦታ ስር ነው ያለሁት።
I am still leading that (ascetic) life at the same place
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የትውልድ አመንዎ ይታወቃል?
Do you know when you were born?
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የተወለድኩት በ1948 ዓ.ም ነው።
I was born in 1948 E.C.
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አሁን እንግዲህ ወደ 60 አመት ልሆን ነው።
I am going to be 60 years of age now.
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የት ነው አሁን መኖሪያዎት እዚህ ነው?
Where do you live now? Do you live here?
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መኖሪያዬ ከዚሁ ደብረ ከርቤ ዳግማዊ ጎሎጎታ ገዳም ነው።
I live here in Dabra Karbe the Second Golgota monastey
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አሁን ልዩ ስሙ በዛንጅራ ቀበሌ ገበሬ ማህበር ዳሌቻ ነው ያለነው።
It is now located at Dalecha which is under Zanjera's Kebele Farmers Association.
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ሁለቱ ገዳም ይህ የእናታችን የቅድስት አርሴማ ቤተ ክርስትያንና
Both monasteries, this Church of our Mother St. Arsema and
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ደብረ ከርቤ ዳግማዊ ጎሎጎታ ገዳም በአንድነት ያሉ ናቸው።
Dabra Karbe the Second Golgota monastery, are [adminstered] together
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መነሻችንም ያፍልፍል ዋሻ ያለበት ደብረ ከርቤ ዳግማዊ ጎሎጎታ ገዳም ነው።
Our beginning is Dabra Karbe the Second Golgota monastery where there is the rockhewn cave.
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በዚሁ ገዳም በአበምኔትነት
We have been working here, myself as an Abbot of this monastery
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መነኮሳት ጋራ በበላይነት አብረን በመተባበር
together with the monks, leading them and in cooperation with them
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እየሰራን ነው ያለነው።
we have been working
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እስቲ ክልሉን፣ ዞኑን፣ ወረዳውን ይንገሩን?
Could you tell us the region, the zone, and the warada?
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ሰሜን ሸዋ ነው።
[the zone] is North Shawa
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አማራ ክልል?
Amara region?
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አማራ ክልል ነው።
It is in Amara region
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ሰሜን ሸዋ ዞን ነው።
North Shawa zone
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ደብረ ብርሃን ከተማ ስር ነው የሚገኘው።
Under the city of Dabra Berhan
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በዛንጅራ ገበሬ ማህበር ዳግማዊ ጎሎጎታ ገዳም።
In Zanjera Farmers Association the monastery of the Second Golgota Monastery
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ትውልድዎ እርሶ ወደ አማራ ወደዚሁ ክልል ነው ማለት ነው?
So are you from the same Amara region?
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ያው ደብረ ሊባኖስም በዚሁ ዙሪያ ስለሆነ
Yes as even Dabra Libanos is in the same area
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ከዚያ ቅርብ ነው፤ ከዚያ ነው የተነሳሁት።
It is close to here, that is my origin
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ቋንቋ ምን ምን ይናገራሉ?
What languages do you speak?
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ቋንቋ ከአማርኛው ሌላ
Other than Amharic language,
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ጥቂት ጥቂት ስለሆኑ አውቃለሁ ማለቱ ትንሽ ሊያስቸግር ይችላል።
it is hard to say I have a good command of any other language,
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ትንሽ እሞካክራቸዋለሁ ከእንግሊዝናውም ከግእዙም፤ እንዲሁም እሰማለሁ።
I try some English and understand Ge'ez
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ግልፅ አድርጎ ለህብረተሰብ ማስተላለፊያ ቋንቋ እችላለሁ ማለት አልችልም።
But I would not say that I can communicate clearly with those
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የስራዎ አይነትና ማእረጎን ይንገሩኝ።
What is your job and your title
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አስተዳዳሪ ወይም አበምኔት፤
I am head or Abbot of the monastery
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በገዳም አጠራር አበምኔት ነው።
In monastic language it is called Abbot
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የገዳሙ አስተዳዳሪ ነኝ ማለት ነው።
That means I am the administerator of the monastery.
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አይደለም።
No
ቤተሰብ አፍርተው ነው ወደ ምንኩስና ሂወት የመጡት?
Did you come to monastic life after having established a family?
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በድንግልና ህይወት ነው።
I have kept chastity throught my life
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ከመነሻው ጀምሮ ወደ ምናኔ አለም ገብቼ ነው።
I joined monastic life from early on
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እስከዚህ የደረስኩት።
and reached here.
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ቀድሞም ወደዚህ ነው የገቡት ስራ ወይስ ሌላ ስራ ሰርተዋል?
Have you ever worked something else before you joined the monastery?
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ከቤተሰብ ወደ ትምህርት አለም ነው፤ ወደ ቤተ ክርስትያን ትምህርት
My journey is from family to school, Church school
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ከቤተ ክርስትያን ትምህርት ትንሽ መግባቢያ የምትሆንና መደመር መቀነስ የምትረዳውን ያህል የተወሰነ ትምህርት ተምሬአለው በዚያ
Beside Church education I have taken some basic lessons [in modern school] like addition, multiplication etc.
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ከዚያ ራሴን የምረዳበት ጥቂት ስራ እየሰራሁ ነበረ።
Then I was helping myself doing some ordinary job
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መንፈስ ቅዱስ ሃይል እስከመጨረሻው የምቆይበትን አነሳስቶኝ
When the Holy Spirit motivated me and gave me the power to endure until the end,
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እግዚአብሄር አምላክ በሱ ቸርነት ወደ ምናኔ ህይወት ገባሁ ማለት ነው።
I took the monastic habit in the mercy of God the Lord.
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እግዚአብሄር ሲያነሳሳዎት የተለየ ምክንያት ነበሮት ወደ ገዳም ለመግባት?
When God motivated you, did you have a special reason to enter monastery?
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ያለኝ ምክንያት በሙሉ ጉልበት ባለ እዝነ ልቦና
My reason was: in all my power, and understanding
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ሁሉንም በቤተ ክርስትያን ወጥቼ ወርጄ እግዚአብሄርን ማገልገል ስለምፈልግ
to toil in the Church and serve God
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በዚያ ህይወቴን እንዲያፀናልኝ በእግዚአብሄር ቸርነት ስራዬን ጀመርኩኝ።
so that He would help me endure in that, I began my work in the mercy of God
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የምናኔ ህይወትም በፀሎት መትጋትና በገዳም ያሉ ስራዎችን እንደ ስራ ድርሻዬ
As it is the habit of monastic life, I have been relentlessly praying and doing my share of the work
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ከመንፈሳዊ እህቶቼና ከመንፈሳዊ አባቶች ጋራ ስራውን እየሰራሁ እስካሁን ቆየሁ ማለት ነው።
with my spiritual sisters (the nuns) and spiritual fathers (the mondks), until now
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የቤተ ክርስትያኑ ትምህርት እስከየት ድረስ ነው የዘለቁት?
What level of Church education have you accomplished
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የቤተ ክርስትያን ትምህርት ቅዳሴ ነው።
I did Liturgy
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በዜማ ማለት ነው የቅዳሴ ትምህርት።
The lesson of Liturgy is musical
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ከስር ጀምሮ ያሉትን በማከናወን እስከ ቅዳሴ ትምህርት ነው።
I did basic Church education and reached up to the level of Liturgy
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የት ትምህርት ቤት ነው? ማነው አስተማሪዎት?
Wherd did you learn? Who was your teacher?
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በእርግጥ ከመሰረቱ ሰቃአ ገዳም ይባላል በዚሁ በሰሜን ሸዋ ክልል ውስጥ የሚገኝ ነው።
In the beginning at Saqa'a monastery, it too is located here in North Shawa
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እዚያ ፊደል በመቁጠር ከዚያ በመነሳትና የክህነት ስልጣን ድቁና ማለት ነው፤
I started my alphabets and reading lessons and was ordained deacon
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ከዚያ በምንኩስና ህይወት ከምንኩስና ቅስና ማለት ነው፤
And when I took the monastic habit, I was ordained priest
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ማእረግ ድረስ ነው ማለት ነው።
this is the level of my ordination
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ያለሁት የቁምስና ደረጃ ማለት ነው፤ የቁምስና ነው አገልግሎቱ።
and now I am Qomos, I give the service in the capacity of a Qomos
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የሚያስታውሱት መምህር አለ በተለይ ህይወቶትን ቀረፀ የሚሉት?
Do you remember any teacher, particularly one who has had real impact on your life?
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የፊደል አባት መጀመሪያ ህይወትን እንድንመራ የሚመክርና ከፊደል ሀ ብሎ ያስቆጠረ
The one who taught us the very first alphabet is the one who also first taught us how to lead our lives properly
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ትውስታ ይኖረናልና አባ መኮንን ይባላሉ።
and so I remember Abba Mekonnen
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አባ መኮንን ደሴ ይባላሉ።
Abba Mekonnen Dessie
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እሳቸው ናቸው ያስተማሩኝ።
He is the one who taught me [Fidel: Alphabet].
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አሉ በህይወት?
Is he alive?
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በህይወት የሉም።
No
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ደብረ ሊባኖስ ስር የሚገኝ ነው።
The place is found in Dabra Libanos
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ሰቃኣ ገዳም ባልኩት ቦታ ነው የተማርኩት እሳቸውም በዚያ ነው በምንኩስናና በቤተክርስትያን በማገልገል የቆዩ አባት ናቸው፤ ከሳቸው ነው የተማርኩት።
It is Saqa'a monastery. It was there that I first went to school. Abba Mekonnen used to serve in the Church there. He was a monk and he was my teacher.
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በጣም ጥሩ አሁን እስቲ በስሮት ስለሚገኘው ዳግማዊ ጎሎጎታ እንነጋገር።
Very well, let us now talk about the Second Golgota, which is under your leadership
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የት ነው ያለው መቼ ነው የተጀመረውና የተጨረሰው ስራው?
Where is it located, and when was the work of the building started and when was it finished?
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መጀመሪያ ቦታውን ራሶት ይንገሩን የት ቦታ እንዳለ?
First tell us about the place, where it is located.
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ዳግማዊ ጎሎጎታ የሚገኘው በሰሜን ሸዋ ሃገረ ስብከት
The Second Golgota is located in the diocese of North Shawa
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ደብረ ብርሃን አውራጃ ውስጥ ወይም ደግሞ በደብረ ብርሃን ከተማ ስር
in Dabra Berhan district, or under the city of Dabra Berhan
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ዛንጅራ ቀበሌ ገበሬ ማህበር ልዩ ስሙ እንብላፄ ይባላል።
Zanjera Kebele Farmers Association, the special name of the place is Enbelatse
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ከዚያ ቦታ ላይ ነው የሚገኙት እነዚህ ፍልፍል ዋሻዎች።
These rockhewn caves are found there
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በዛ ያሉ ፍልፍል ዋሻዎች ናቸው።
They are quite a few caves
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ከዚያ ቦታላይ በ1986 ነው የተጀመረው።
It was started there in 1986 E.C.
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በ1986 የጀመሩት አባታችን አባ ገብረ ኪዳን ገብረ ማርያም
Our father Abba Gabra Kidan started first there in 1986
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በአፀደ ነፍስ ነው የሚገኙት የአፀደ ስጋ ምልልሳቸውን ጨርሰው በ1995ዓ. ም ነው ያረፈት እኚህ አባት።
He is now "in the Field of the Soul" [= in Heaven], he is no more "in the Field of the Flesh" [= here in this world]. He passed away in 1995 E.C.
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የቦታው መስራችና እነዚህን ድንቅ ፍልፍል ዋሻዎችን አዘጋጅተው ያለፉት።
He passed away after having established the place and prepared these wonderful rockhewn caves
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በ1986 ተጀምሮ ስራው መቼ ተጠናቀቀ?
Having been started in 1986, when did the work finish?
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ስራው እስከ አሉበት ሰአት 1995ዓ.ም ድረስ ያቅማቸውን እየሰሩ ነው የቆዩት።
He had been working as long as he was alive, that is, until 1995 E.C.
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ማለትም በፍልፍል ዋሻዎች ውስጥ ውስን አመታት ናቸው የወሰደባቸው።
The rockhewn caves took only a few years,
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ከልማት ስራው ጋራ ቦታውን ከማስተካከል አዲስ የተመሰረተ በመሆኑ
However, he engaged also in developmental works and in putting the place in order, as it was newly established
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አብረው ነው የልማት ስራውንም ሲሰሩ የነበሩት።
He was doing the developmental work side by side
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ለገዳሙ የሚያስፈልጉ ተገቢ ምንጮች ማግኘት የሚቻልበትን እርከን ሰርቶ ገደላማ ቦታ በመሆኑ
Terracing the cliffy area so as to enable springs emerge for cultivation
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አፈሩን በተገቢ ሁኔታ አስቀምጦ አፀዶችን በመትከል
Putting the soil in order and planting trees
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የምስረታ ገዳም ነው በሳቸው ነው የተጀመረውና
It was first established by him
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በዚያ ሂደት ነበር የጀመሩት።
He started in that way
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በእግር ይደረስበታል? በመኪና ነው?
Is it within a walking distance? Or is it reached by car?
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መኪና በአሁኑ ሰአት እስከዚያ ይገባል።
It is reachable by car nowadays
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በእርግጥ በክረምት ወቅት ጥቂት የሚቀረው ስራ ስላለው ነው ይገባሉ መግባት አሁንም።
In fact there still is some work to be done for winter, but still it is reachable by car
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መኪናዎች ይገባሉ።
Cars can go there
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በእግር የ45 ደቂቃ መንገድ ነው የሚሆነው ከዚህ ቅርብ ነው።
It may take 45 minutes on foot from here.
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አዎ።
Yes
ከዚህ ካለንበት?
From here?
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መጎብኘት ይቻላል ለሁሉ ሰው ክፍት ነው?
Can we visit it? Is it open for anyone?
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በፀሎት ምክንያት ወቅቶች ላይ በክርምት ሱባኤ አባቶች እና እናቶች ስለሚይዙበት
It is occasionally [closed] for special prayer times; as a retreat for monks and nuns in winter
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ቀደም ብሎ ከክረምት መግቢያው ጀምሮ እስከ መስከረም 21 ድረስ ለፀሎት ይይዙበታል።
From early on, from the beginning of the winter until Maskaram 21 (=October 1) they go there to retreat for prayer.
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አባ ገብረ ኪዳን ነው ያሉኝ?
Did you say Abba Gabra Kidan
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አባ ገብረኪዳን ገብረ ማርያም ይባላሉ የቦታው መስራች አባት።
Yes He is Abba Gabra Kidan Gabra Maryam. He is the founder of the place.
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አባ ገብረ ኪዳን ከማን ጋር ነው የሰሩት? ሌላ ተጨማሪ የረዳቸው አለ?
Who did Abba Gabra Kidan work with, did any other person help him?
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በዋሻ ፍልፈላው አባታችን አባ ገብረ ኪዳን ገብረ ማርያም እንግዲግ ቅዱሳን መካናት በሚመሰረቱበት ሰአት
While founding the holy places, Abba Gabra Kidan carved the caves
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በመንፈስ በመነሳሳት ነው እግዚአብሄር አምላክ እንዳመለከታቸው
motivated by the Spirit, inasmuch as God directed him,
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መላእክትን እሳቸውን ይጠብቁ ዘንድ ቅዱሳን አባቶቻችንን እንዳዘዘላቸው
and as angels and saints were commanded to keep him,
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የስራቸውን ድርሻ ለማከናወን ይወጣሉ ይወርዳሉ
he toiled to accomplish his share of the work
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ፍልፍል ዋሻዎችን ሲፈለፍሉ ማንም አያግዛቸውም።
No one helped him by carving the caves
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ነገር ግን ያሲፈለፈል
But while he carved
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ትልልቅ የሆነውንም ተቆፍሮ የሚወጣውንም ደቃቁምን አፈር በማውጣት
we helped removing whatever was dug out, bigger ones or fine soil
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ጥቂት ያቅማችንን እየተራዳን ነው በማውጣት ደረጃ
we helped a little to the extent we could
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ሌላው በመቆፈር እሳቸው ናቸው ፍልፍል ዋሻዎቹን ሁሉ ሲቆፍሩና ሲያስተካክሉ የነበሩት።
He alone did the digging and straightening of all the caves
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ሙሉ ለሙሉ ስራው የቁፋሮው ማለት ነው በሳቸው ነው የተካሄደው?
Do you mean that all the work of digging was done by him?
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አዎ በሳቸው ነው የተካሄደው።
Yes it was by him
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የአካባቢው ጳጳስ ማናቸው?
Who is the bishop of the area
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የሰሜን ሸዋ አገረ ስብከት ሊቀ ጳጳስ አቡነ ኤፍሬም ናቸው።
Archbishop Abuna Ephrem of North Shawa
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የት ነው መንበራቸው? እዚሁ ደብረ ብርሃን ከተማ ነው?
Where is the seat of his bishopric? Is it here in Dabra Berhan?
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መንበረ ጵጵስናቸው በዚሁ በደብረ ብርሃን ከተማ ነው።
The seat of the bishopric is here in the city of Dabra Berhan
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የወደፊት እቅድ አለ ሌላ የማስፋፋት በዚሁ አካባቢ እንደዚህ የመፈልፈል እቅድ አላችሁ ወይም ሌላ እቅድ አለ?
Is there any plan, to carve more caves, for instance, or any other plan?
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ያለውን ይህንን ቅዱስ መካን ፍልፍል ዋሻውን መጠበቅና ብዙ በመሆናቸው ያሉትን
Our task is to keep those we already have, and they are many
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ለአገልግሎት የሚበቁ መነኮሳትን ማዘጋጀት ነው።
We need to secure adequate monks for the service
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በፀሎት እንዲተጉ በሰአታቱ በቅዳሴው
So that they may flourish in prayers, conducting the Hours (the Horologion) and Liturgy
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እንዲሁም ደግሞ ለነሱ የሚያስፈልጋቸውን የልማት ስራዎች በመስራት ላይ ነው ያለነው።
We are also focused on developmental work in order to be able to provide for them
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እና ያለውን በመጠበቅ ነው።
And so, we try to keep what we have
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ሌሎች ተጨማሪ ባለው ታሪክ ላይ ለመቀጠል ያልታሰበበት በቂ ፍልፍል ዋሻዎች ናቸው ያሉት።
We do not intend to add more on what we have, simply because we have enough rockhewn caves.
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ስንመጣ መንገድ ላይ 55 ፍልፍል ዋሻዎች ይላል እሱ ትክክለኛ ቁጥር ነው አንዳንድ ሰዎች ትክክል አይደለም ይላሉ?
We have seen a sign on our way that says "55 caves," is that correct? Some say it is not correct.
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ሊያንስም ሊጨምርም ይችላል ቁጥራቸው በትክክል ይታወቃል?
It may be less or more than that. How many caves are there exactly?
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ቁጥራቸው እንግዲህ እሳቸው እንደሰየሙት ከአነስተኞቹ ጋራ ነው።
The number indicated all the small caves that he named
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እንዲሁም ደግሞ ብዙ ምእመን የማይደርስባቸው ህቡእ የሆኑ ማለት ይቻላል
There are also hidden caves where ordinary faithful cannot reach
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አባቶች በዚያ አካባቢ ተሰውረው የሚፀልዩባቸው እነሱን ሁሉ ከትናንሹ ጋር በመቁጠር ነው።
Where the hidden ascetics pray. These are also counted with the smaller caves
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እንጂ በቤተ-መቅደስ ደረጃ አምስት ናቸው።
Other than those, we have five caves that are temples
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ቤተ-መቅደስ ማለት የሚቀደስበት የሚሰለስበት።
When we say temple, we mean [a Church] where [Eucharistic] liturgy is conducted and chants are sung
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ሌሎቹ ግን ለአንድ ገዳም በሚያስፈልገው የፀሎት አገልግሎት የሚበቃውን
But the others are places enough for prayers as it is customary in a monastry to pray
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መንፈስ ቅዱስ ባነሳሳቸው መሰረት እየሰየሙ
Inasmuch as the Holy Spirit motivated them
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በዚህ አይነት ወደ 55 ፍልፍል ዋሻዎች እንላለን።
And in this way we say there are about 55 rockhewn caves
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መነሻቸው በምናኔ ህይወት ከተወለዱበት ቦታ ከአምቦ ከተማ ተነስተው ነው።
He [Abba Gabra Kidan] began his ascetic life from Ambo, his birthplace.
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ምናኔ ህይወት ዝቋላ ከእቋላ ደግሞ ወደ ፃድቃኔ ማርያም
He led monastic life in Zeqwala, then in Tsadqane Maryam
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ከፃድቃኔ ማርያም እዚሁ ደብረ ገነት ሳራ ቅዱስ ሚካኤል ማለት ነው።
From Tsadqane Maryam, he came here to Dabra Ganat Sara St. Michael
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ምናልባት እናንተም እንዳመላከታችሁኝ በትላንትናው እለት ካያችሁበት ቦታ
Perhaps in the place where you said to me you were yesterday,
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በዚያም ሁለት ፍልፍል ቤተ-መቅደሶችን ሰርተዋል።
There he had carved two rockhewn Churches
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የእመቤታችንን ቤተ-መቅደስና የስላሴን ቤተ-መቅደስ
The Church of our Lady [St. Mary] and that of the Holy Trinity
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ሁለቱ ሌሎችም ደግሞ አምስት አነስተኛ ፍልፍል ዋሻዎች አሉ።
Other than the two, there are also five smaller rockhewn caves
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ከዚያ ነው እንደገና ወደ ደብረ ከርቤ ዳግማዊ ጎሎጎታ ገዳም በ1986 ዓ.ም
It was after having made those that he came to Dabra Karbe the Second Golgota monastery in 1986 E.C.
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ለመመስረትና እነዚያን ቀሪዎቹን ፍልፍል ዋሻዎች ለማዘጋጀት በመንፈስ ቅዱስ አነሳሽነት የገቡት።
in order to found the monastery and to carve all those rockhewn caves, motivated by the Holy Spirit
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ከዚህ ጋራ በመዳመር ነው እንግዲህ ቁጥራቸው፤
So the numbers includes all these
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አዎ።
Yes
አሃ ነው እንዴ?
Is that so?
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እነዚህ አምስቱ ማን ማን ናቸው? አበይት አሁን እንደተባለው በስራ ላይ ያሉ የሚቀደስባቸው?
Which ones are the five main ones, which now function as Churches?
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በፍልፍል ዋሻ የእመቤታችን ቤተ-መቅደስ ነው።
One is the Church of our Lady [St. Mary]
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እንዲሁም ደግሞ የመድሃኒአለም ቤተ-መቅደስ አለ።
also the Church of MedhandeAlem (the Holy Savior)
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የአባ ሃርያቆስና ቅዱስ ኤፍሬም ቤተ-መቅደስ
The Church of Abba Heryaqos and St. Ephrem
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አሁንም ከዚያ ከመነሻቸው ቦታ ላይ የስላሴና የእመቤታችን ማለት ነው አምስት ናቸው በድምሩ።
And from the place where it all began the Churches of the Holy Trinity and of our Lady St. Mary. These add up to five.
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እንደው ይሄ መፈልፈል አሁን እስቲ ወደዛ እንምጣና
Let us discuss about the carving
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ምንድነው መነሻቸው ምክንያታቸው አሁን ከቤት እንደዚህ ቤተ ክርስትያን ይገነባል፤
What is the motive? Would a Church be built from house like this?
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አሁን በዘመኑ ብዙ አይነት እቃም አለ ለመገንባት ለብዙ ነገር ምንድነው መነሻቸው ምክንያታቸው ይታወቃል አባ ገብረኪዳንም ሆነ ሌሎቹ?
Nowadays there many kinds of material to build. What is the reason for Abba Gabra Kidan or for others to do this. Do you know the reason?
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በተለይ እርሶ ከአባ ገብረኪዳን ጋር ቅርብ ስለነበሩ ምንድነው ምክንያታቸው?
Particularly as you were so close to Abba Gabra Kidan, what was his reason?
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እንግዲህ በቅርስ ደረጃ በሚታይበት ሰአት አባቶቻችን ሃዋርያትም
Looked upon from the point of view of heritage, even our fathers the Apostles
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ያለውን የመጀመሪያ የምናኔ ህይወታቸውን በበርሃና
first led their ascetic life in wildernesses
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እንደዚሁም ደግሞ በፍልፍል ዋሻዎች/በተፈጥሮ ያገኙባቸው ቦታ ላይም
as well as in caves where they found them naturally
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እንዲሁም በመፈልፈል ያሉትን ቅርሶች ይዘው ነው ሃይማኖትን ሲያፀኑ የነበረው።
or by carving them out themselves, to keep their faith active.
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ከዚህ በመነሳት የመንፈስ ቅዱስ ሃይል እንዳነሳሳቸው እግዚአብሄር አምላክ በመላእክቶች አማካኝነት እንደመራቸው
So based on this, we can say that inasmuch as the power of the Holy Spirit inspired him, and the Lord God directed him through his angels,
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የፍልፍል ወይም ደግሞ ከድንጋይ ፈልፍሎ መማዘጋጀትን
this father started the work of carving stones
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በመንፈስ ቅዱስ አነሳሽነት እኚህ አባትም ወደዛ ህይወት ውስጥ ገቡ ማለት ነው።
he made it his life, motivated by the Holy Spirit
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ትንቢት ተነግሮላቸው ግዜያት ተቆጥሮላቸው ነው ከአምቦ ከተማ ተነስተው የወጡት ከመንፈሳዊ አባታቸውጋ
a prophesy was told and the time was set when he would come here from the city of Ambo with his father
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ወደፊት ስምህ በአለም ይጠራል
"Your name will be called all over the world,
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የምታደርገው የመንፈሳዊ ህይወትም ላቅ ያለ እና የቤተ ክርስትያን ቅርስ የምታዘጋጅበት ህይወትን ነው የምትኖረው
"You will lead a hihghly spiritual life and you will leave a legacy for the Church"
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የሚል እንደሚነግሯቸው በቅርብ እኚህ አባት ይነግሩኝ ነበረ።
Such were the words he used to hear [while he was in Ambo]
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በዚህ አማካኝነት እለትና ሰአቱ ሲደርስ እመቤታችን አነሳስታቸው የሷን ቤተ-መቅደስ
And so, when the day and the time arrived, guided by our Lady, he started carving her Church
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ቅድም በገለፅኩት በደብረ ገነት ሳራ ቅዱስ ሚካኤል መፈልፈል ጀመሩ ማለት ነው።
at Dabra Ganat Sara St. Michael, which I mentioned earlier.
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በእርግጥ ያገዳም አስቀድሞ መስራች አባት አለው።
In fact this monastery was founded before him
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ሌሎች መነኮሳት ነበሩበት። ...እሺ።
and there were monks [before he came]
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የተነሱት እንግዲህ መንፈስ ቅዱስ ባነሳሳቸው መሰረት
The motive thus is the Holy Spirit
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ከፍልፍል ዋሻ የሚሰሩ ቤተ-መቅደሶችን ማዘጋጀት እንዳለባቸው እግዚአብሄር አምላክ ስላነሳሳቸው ነው።
The Lord God motivated him to make Churches out of rockhewn caves.
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ብዙ ምእመን አለ አንድን ሰው እንዴት ነው እግዚአብሄር የሚያነሳሳው?
There are many faithfuls, how does God motivate a particular person?
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እንደዚህ ትንቢት እንዲኖርለትለማድረግ አንድ ሰው ምንድነው የሚያስፈልገው?
What is required of a person in order that such prophecy may be told about him?
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ምክንያቱም በትምህርትም በሁሉ አለምም እንደዚህ እግዚአብሄር ያነሳሳቸው ሰዎች መልካም ስራን እንዲፈፅሙ የምንፈልጋቸው ብዙ ሰዎች ቢኖሩ ደግሞ ብዙ ስራም ይሰራ ነበረ።
For in education, and in the whole world, we want people to be initiated by God and do good things
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ምክንያት አለ እግዚአብሄር እንዲህ የሚያነሳሳበት አንድ ሰው የሚመርጥበት መልእክቱን የሚልክለት?
Is there any reason for God to choose a single person and send His mission?
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አዎ የልብ ቅንነትን ይጠይቃል።
Yes, it requires wholeheartedness
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ለህጉ መታዘዝ ማለት ነው።
Obedience to His law
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እንግዲህ ወደ መፀሃፍ ቅዱስ ሲገባ ይሄ ሰፋ ያለ ጊዜን የሚወስድ ነው።
It may take quite some time, if we consider this biblically
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አባታችን አብርሃም መልካም ስራን በመስራት ሲጓዝ እግዚአብሄርን እንዳስደሰተው፤
Just like our father Abraham, when he pleased God by doing good
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እኔ ከወዳጄ ከአብርሃም የምደብቀው ነገር የለም ይላል መፅሃፍ ቅዱስ ዘፍጥረት ላይ።
God says in the Bible (Genesis): I do not hide anything from my friend Abraham
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ልክ እንደዚሁ እየመረጣቸው ለተአርዮም ከርስእሙ ከእናታቸው ማህፀን የተመረጡ አሉ ለቅድስና ስራ
Just like this, there are those who were chosen from the womb of their mothers, for holy deeds
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ለሌሎች አርአያ ሆነው ለመምራት
to be examples for others
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የሚመርጣቸው አሉ፤ ለዚህ ነው ሃዋርያቶችም ተመርጠው እሱ በጠራቸው መሰረት መጥተው
There are those who are chosen. That is how the apostles were chosen and following their call
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እስከመጨረሻ ያለውን ስለ ክርስቶስ ለኛ መምጣቱን ሲመሰክሩ የነበሩት።
told us about Christ until the end, witnessing his coming.
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እንደነዚህ ያሉ ናቸው ቅዱሳን አባቶች ሙሉ ህሊናቸውን አሰባስበው
It is saints like this, who in all their thoughts
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ለእግዚአብሄር ለመንፈስ ቅዱስ ሲታዘዙት የነበሩት ናቸው መልካም ስራ ሰርተው
obeyed God the Holy Spirit and did good,
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ስጋቸውን በርቺ ፅኚ እያሉ የጀመሩት እንጨርሰዋለን
hoping that God will let them finish once they started
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እግዚአብሄር ያስፈፅመናል በማለት እንዲህ አይነት ቅርሶችን ትተውልን ያለፉት ማለት ነው።
they were able to leave behind such a heritage for us
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ከተግባራዊነትስ አንፃር ለምሳሌ እነዚህ አሁን ያሉት ቤተ ክርስትያኖች የሚሰጡን አገልግሎት አለ
From practical point of view, what function do these Churches have?
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ፍልፍልዋሻ ቤተ ክርስትያኖች ምንድነው የተለየ ጥቅም አላቸው የተለየ አገልግሎት?
Do the rockhewn Churches have special importance, special service?
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ለምእመናኑም ሆነ ለሚፀልየው ምእመን ሱባኤ ለሚገባውም?
Either for the faithful in general or for those who go for retreat
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ሲሰሩም ሆነ አገልግሎት ሲሰጡ ማለት ነው?
when they were carved as well as while in service?
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እንደ ፍልፍል ዋሻ ስናይ እንግዲህ በሃገራችን በኢትዮጲያ በ11ኛው ክፍለ ዘመን የነበረው የላሊበላን ነው የምናነሳው
When we consider a rockhewn cave, our first example is the Lalibela Churches that were carved in the 11th Century
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በአርአያ አባቶችም በስፋት ሲነገር የነበረውን ሲያስተምሩን የነበረው።
That is what our fathers told us about and taught us widely
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ይህንን ፈለግ በመከተል ነው ብዙዎች አባቶቻችን አሁንም
It is following this example, our fathers
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በተለያየ ቦታ የተፈለፈሉ ቤተ-መቅደሶች አሉ ከዋሻ
have made rockhewn Churches and caves in different places
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ከዚህም አንዱ የሆነው አሁን እኔምበዚያ ቦታ ላይ ቆይቼ እስካሁን ያለሁበት ደብረ ከርቤ ዳግማዊ ጎሎጎታ ገዳም
And one among these is Dabra Karbe the Second Golgota, where I have been staying until now.
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ምንድነው ለየት የሚያደርገው
What distinguishes it is that
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በበርሃ ለፀሎት በሚያመችበት ድምፀ አራዊት ብቻ በሚሰማበት ቦታ ላይ ነው አባቶቻችን ሲመንኑ የነበሩት።
Our fathers used to lead ascetic life in the wilderness where only the voice of animals could be heard
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ፍልፍል ዋሻዎችን ደግሞ ለየት ያሉና
On top of that, rockhewn caves are special in that
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ለአገልግሎት ለፀሎት የሚያመቹ ናቸው።
they are convenient for prayer and for service
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እነዚያም ደግሞ ለማደስም ሆነ
and they
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በተለያየ ጊዜ መጥተው ህብረተሰቡን
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እድሳት ለመስራት የሚያስፈልጉ አይደሉም።
they do not need renovation
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ያጠንክረው የሰሩበት ቦታ ማለት ነው
that is where they toiled a lot
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እግዚአብሄር አምላክ ባመለከታቸውና ስሜን የምታወድሱበት
inasmuch as God directed them saying "you shall praise my name
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ለሃገር ሰላምና ፍቅር አንድነት የምትፀልዩበት ቦታ ይህ ነው ብሎ ባመለከታቸው መሰረት
"and this is where you pray for peace and unity of the land"
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እዚያ ቦታ ላይ አምልኮታቸውን ይገልፃሉ።
Based on that they worship there
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ምእመኑም በፀሎት እዚያ ቦታ ላይ ራሱን በማግለል ይፀልያል ማለት ነው።
And members of the faithful community also may retreat there for prayer
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ዋጋቸውስ በስራ ላይ ብዙ ገንዘብ ወጥቶባቸዋል?
What about the price? Was a lot of money invested in them?
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የታወቀ ነገር አለ አሁን ለምሳሌ ምን ያህል ወጪ እንደወጣ በዚህ ስራ ላይ?
Is it known how much money was spent on it?
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አይ እንግዲህ ሲተመን በእውነት እንደዚህ በአለማዊ ህይወት ውስጥ እንደሚሰሩት
No, this was not done like any other building is built in the world
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ህንፃዎች ወይም ደግሞ በጀት ተይዞለት ገንዘብ በአንድ ላይ ለዚህ ያስፈፅማል ተብሎ ተዘጋጅቶለት አይደለም።
with budget and money in place before hand
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መሃንዲሱም እግዚአብሄር አምላክ ነው።
And the engineer is God the Lord
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እዚያ ቦታ የሚያስ ፈለገውም ደግሞ የሚያነሳሳቀቸው ምእመኖች ስላሉ
And for whatever is needed at that place, there are people whom God motivates
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ያ የሚያመጡት ስጦታ እና
to bring gifts
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ያ መንፈሳዊ አባት ደግሞ በዚያ ፆሞ ፀልዮ የሚሰራው ስራ
and the work the spiritual father does, praying and fasting,
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ከሁሉም የበለጠ የመንፈስ ጥንካሬ ስላለው
has strength above all else
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የብዙ ገንዘብን ያ በቀላሉ ሊሰራ ይችላል።
that which may have otherwise taken a lot of money, could be done quite simply
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በቀላሉ ሲባል ስጋን ፈትኖ ነው አድክሞ ነው።
even when we say simply, it in fact comes with toiling the flesh.
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እና ይህ ነው የአባቶቻችን ትልቁ ውጤት የመንፈስ ጥንካሬ አለ።
This is the major result of our fathers, they have strong spirit
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ደከመኝ ስትል ስጋን በርቺ ፅኚ በማለት ነው ሰርተው የሚያዘጋጁለት።
when the flesh weakens, they strengthen it.
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እና ስለዚህ ብዙ ወጪ የለውም እርግጥ እነሱ መኖር አለባቸው መመገብ አለባቸው።
So there was no considerable expense? But htey needed to eat, they needed to look after themselves.
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የታወቀ ወጪ የለም እንደዚህ ነገሩን ለመጨረስ ወይም ለማድረግ?
No known expense to bring about all this?
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አዎ ደምሮ ይሄን ያህል ወጪ ወስዷል የሚለውን ለመግለፅ ያዳግታል።
Yes, it is difficult to sum up and say it was this much.
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መሳሪያዎቹ በዚህ ዘመን በቴክኖሎጂ በጥሩ ሁኔታ ተሰርተው
Even the tools used at that time were not modern
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የተዘጋጁት ሳይሆን መጥረቢያ፣ አካፋ፣ ዶማ፣ መፈልፈያ
they were traditional tools like axe, shovel, mattock, chisel
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እነዚህን የመሳሰሉት ናቸው በዚያን ሰአት ይሰራባቸው የነበረው።
and the like.
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በታሪክ አሁን ያነሱት አለ ላሊበላ በ11ኛው ክፍለ ዘመን
You mentioned from history, Lalibela of the 11th Century
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ከዛ በኋላ ግን ብዙ የተሰሩ አለ እንዴ ታሪኩ ተያይዞ የመጣ ነገር አለ?
But were there many [rockhewn Churches] made after that? Is there a continuity?
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የፍልፍል ዋሻ ስራ ታሪክ?
of the history of carving caves?
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ብዙ እንደዚህ ታሪክ አለን እንዴ እኛ የተያያዘ?
Do we have a continuous history of such practice?
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ማለት ሌሎችን አሁን በዚህ ዘመን ያሉትን እንደዚህ መነኮሳትን ሊያነሳሳ ሊያበረታታ የሚችል ከታሪክ?
A continuity that may inspire other monks to do the same?
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ከላሊበላ ውጪ ሌሎች ታሪኮች አሉ መነሻ ታሪኮች አሉ?
Are there any examples other than Lalibela?
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በብዙ ቦታዎች አሉ አሁን እንግዲህ ለመዳሰስ የሃገራችንን ታሪክና ቅርስ ቦታዎች ለማወቅ
There indeed are in many places. Now as to how we may have a glance at the history and heritage of our country,
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ያው ብዙ የተነሳሳን አይመስለኝም በቅድመ ሁኔታ።
I think we are not yet motivated to know. [We lack] this precondition.
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በአሁኑ ሰአት እንደሚታየው እንደሚታወቀው በመፅሄትም
As it is well known nowadays,
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በተለያዩ ወደ ህብረተሰቡ በሚገለፅበት የቴክኒካል መሳሪያዎች እንደሚገለፀው ቀደም ብሎ አልተሄደበትም።
even though no attempt was made early on to discover and introduce them to the people in magazines and other technical media,
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እንጂ በብዙ ቦታዎች ላይ እንዳሉ ነው የሚነገረን።
we do hear that there are such caves in many places.
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ለምሳሌ ደብረ ሊባኖስ ብንሄድ በ12ኛው መቶ ክፍለ ዘመን የነበረ ገዳም ነው፤ ፃፍቁ አባታችን አቡነ ተክለ ሃይማኖት የመሰረቱት።
For example, Dabra Libanos is a monastery from the 12th Century. It was established by our saint father [Takla Haymanot]
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ፀልየው በዚያ ቦታ ላይ ቃል ኪዳን የተቀበሉበት።
He prayed there and received covenant
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መነሻቸው አሁን ካለው ቤተ ክርስትያን
The original place was
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ትንሽ ወደ ገደላማ ቦታ ወርዶ ኮራ ገዳም የሚባል አለ፤ ከዚያ ፍልፍል ዋሻ አለ።
a little further from the current place towards the cliffy area. It is called Kora monastery and there is a cave there.
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እዚያ አካባቢ ስላለሁኝ ነው ያለውን ሁኔታ ከሰረቱ የማውቀው።
Because I am from that area I know about it from the beginning.
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በአሁኑ ሰአት ግን ያቅርስ ቦታው ላይ ቀርበን ፀልየን የነሱን በረከት ለማግኘትና ለማድነቅ
But nowadays we are not able to pray there and receive blessings from the saints and to marvel at the place
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የማይቻልበት ሁኔታ አለ ካለመጠበቃችን የተነሳ ከመሰረቱ ማለት ነው።
Because we did not do well to preserve the place from the beginning
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ፍልፍል ዋሻዎቹ እላይ ርቀው ይሄዳሉ ከስር ያሉት ደግሞ አፈሩ ባለመጠበቁ አፀዶች በመቆረጣቸው አፈሩ ይሸረሸራል።
the rockhewn caves are way up and those underneath the soil are eroded due to deforestration.
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እንዲህ አይነት ገጠመኞችንም አይቻለሁ ባለሁበት የህይወት ዘመን ምልልስ ላይ።
I have seen myself such things happen
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ከዚህ አካያ እንጂ ብዙ ከዚያ የተያያዙ አባቶቻችን የተከተሉት የነላሊበላ ፈለግ አለ ነው የምለው።
If not for such lack of preservation, I believe there are many that were made following the footsteps of Lalibela
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አዎ ይሄ ትልቅ ነገር ነው፤ አንዱ አሳሳቢ ነገር ነው ጥበቃ ይሄን ያህል ተደክሞ አገልግሎት መስጠት ከጀመረ በኋላ
Yes this is a big issue. Preservation is one of the biggest concerns. After such an enormous amount of hard work, and when the place is ready for service
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በተለይ ይሄ ነገር እንዳይወሰድ እንዳይፈርስ ቦታው እንዳይሸረሸር፤
lest it crumbles and the place gets eroded
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ዙሪያውን ጥበቃ የሚደረግበት ነገር... ጥሩ አንስተዋል።
the surrounding area should be kept up, as you mentioned
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አሁን ኢቺም ቤተ ክርስትያናችን አለች፤
Now this is also a Church
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ፍልፍል ዋሻ ከእሳ የተለየ የሚያመለክተው ነገር አለ በአመልካችነት እንደው?
What distinguishes a rockhewn Church from this [Church]
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አገልግሎቱ አንድ ነው እንደ ቤተ-መቅደስ የሚገለገለው።
The service is the same. The service in the sanctuary
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ነገር ግን በቅርፅ ደረጃ የፍልፍል ዋሻዎች ብዙ በምንመለከትበት ጊዜ መስቀለኛ ቅርፅ ያላቸውና
But there is difference in shape. When we look at rockhewn Churches, they are crosslike and have only one door.
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በአንድ በር ገብቶ ያንን ሚስጥራትን የሚያካትት
We use one door to go in
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መቅደስ፣ ቅድስት፣ ቅኔ ማህሌት የሚለውን በዚያው በመስቀለኛ ይዘት ተሰርቶ በአንድ በረ ይጠቀማሉ፤ ይህ ነው።
the sanctuary, the holy, and the chanting section are included but it is one door for all
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ያለው የሚስጥራት አገልግሎት ወይም ደግሞ ፀሎቱ የሚደርሰው ግን
However, the sacraments and all the prayers conducted are the same
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አንድ አይነት ወጥ የሆነ ኦርቶዶክስ ተዋህዶ ሃይማኖት አገልግሎት ሂደት ነው።
the service is the uniform service of the Orthodox Tewahedo Church
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ፍልፍል ዋሻ ቤተ አምልኮ ስፍራ መፅሃፍ ቅዱስ ውስጥ መነሻ አለው ታሪክ አለው?
Is there a reference in the Bible about a rockhewn cave as a place of worship?
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የሚያስታውሱት?
do you remember?
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ከመፅሃፍ ቅዱስ ውስጥ በዘፀአትም ላይ
In the Bible, particularly in Exodus
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ከተለዩ ድንጋዮች ቀርፀው
about shapes from stones
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የሚሰራ እንዳለ ጥቂት የሚገልፀው ነገር አለ፤ በስፋት ባናገኘውም በቤተ-መቅደስ ደረጃ ላይ
there is a slight reference, although it is not widely mentioned at the level of the Temple
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እሱ እግዚአብሄር አምላክ በመረጣቸው በዘፀአት ላይ አለ መነሻው።
[It is done by those] whom the Lord has chosen. Exodus provides the basis
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ከዚያ በዘመነ ሃዋርያትም ደግሞ ካታ ኮምፕ ዋሻዎች አሉ።
And during the time of the Apostles, there were catacombs
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እነ ሃዋርያው ቅዱስ ጳውሎስም በተልእኮ ህይወት ውስጥ ከዚያ ቦታ ላይ ሆነው
wherein the Apostles like St. Paul undertook their mission
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የኦርቶዶክስ ተዋህዶ ሃይማኖትን ሲያስፋፉና ስለ ክርስቶስ ሲመሰክሩ እንደነበረ ነው።
witnessing and spreading the Orthodox Tewahedo faith.
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አዎ እንግዲህ የሱ ታሪክ አለ ግን በግል እሳቸው የተዉት ፅሁፍ አለ?
Yes there are such stories. But did he [Gabra Kidan?] leave any writing?
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ያካፈሏችሁ ብቻ ነው? እንደዚህ በዚህ ምክንያት ነው ወደዚህ መጥቼ እንደዚህ የሰራሁት የሚል?
Is that all he shared with you? Did not he say the reason why he came here and did what he did?
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መነሳሳታቸው?
about his motive?
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ያነሳሳቸው ቅድም እንደገለፅኩት የመንፈስ ቅዱስ ሃይል
As I mentioned earlier, it is the power of the Holy Spirit that inspired him.
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እግዚአብሄር አምላክ ቤተ-መቅደሴን አንፅ ባላቸው መሰረት ነው።
He did what he did based on the direction of God who said to him "Build my Sanctuary!"
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በለሊቱ በህልም ያሳያቸዋል።
at night in his dreams
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ያን የሚሰሩትንም ቅርፅና ይዘት ጧት ተነስተው በለሊቱ ያመለከታቸውን በመንፈስ ቅዱስ ሃይል ይሰራሉ።
and the shape and size he saw at night in his dreams, he would do it in the morning by the power of the Holy Spirit
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በፅሁፍ ደረጃ ላይ ያዘጋጁት አለ።
He has written
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በቅርብም ስላለ በአሁኑ ሰአት በስፋትና አጠንክረን ያዘጋጀንላቸው ነገርም ባይኖር
and we have it, although we were not able to do something robust,
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በማስታወሻ መልኩ ካለው ዘመን አኳያ
as a memory, according to the age
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በአሁኑ ሰአት በዶክመንተሪ ፊልም እሳቸው ራሳቸው እያስረዱ የተቀረፀ አለ።
there is now a documentary in which he was recorded while explaining
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አዎ።
yes
በእውነት?
really?
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እናንተጋ ነው ያለው?
do you have it?
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አዎ።
yes
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ወይ ከቴሌቪዥን ከንደዚህ መጥቶ ነው?
or is it from TV?
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ከኛጋ ነው።
we have it
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ማግኘት ይቻላል ኮፒ ወይ እንደዚህ ማየት?
Is it possible to have a copy of it?
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ይቻላል።
It is possible
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እሺ እግዚአብሄር ይስጥልን ዕንግዲህ ጥሩ። አንዳንድ ነገር እናገኛለን።
Well, thank you. we may get something [from the video?]
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ከዛ በኋላስ እንደው በእንደዚህ መልክ ተባረከ የሚባለው ከስራው መጨረስና ከመንፈሳዊ እርካታ ሌላ
Did anything happen after that, [after] the benediction in such manner, other than the complition of the work and the spiritual satisfaction thereof
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ሌላ ነገር አለ እንደው እግዚአብሄር ያሳየው ተአምር ይሆናል ይሄ ተሰርቶ ሲያልቅ በመሰራት ሂደቱ የሚያስታውሱት ነገር አለ?
Was there anything else, did God show any miracle after the work was completed, or during the process?
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አዎ ብዙ ገቢረ ተአምራቶች አሉ በዚያ ቦታ ላይ፤
Yes, many miracles were made at that place.
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ፀበሉ ያለው ከፍልፍል ዋሻዎች ተፈልፍሎ ነው ባመለከታቸው መሰረት አሁንም።
The holy water sprang from the hewn caves, as God directed him. It still is there.
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ይህች ምህረትን የምትሰጠው ህሙማንን የምትፈውሰው ቦታ
At that place of mercy and healing,
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አመልክቷቸው በመፈልፈል ፀበሉ ከወጣ በኋላ
where the holy water sprang
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ብዙዎች ከሃይ አጋንንት ቁራኛ ማለትም አይምሯቸው ተጋብቶባቸው
many people who were possessed by demons and were mentally sick
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ራሳቸውን መቆጣጠር ያቃታቸው ከዚያ ድነዋል፤
and who had no control of themselves, were cured
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ከውስጥ ህመም እንደ አስም እንደ ኤች አይቪ በሽታም ሳይቀር
Also people with internal diseases like asthma, including even HIV Aids, were healed
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ከሰውነታቸውም እትራት በሽታ ማለት ነው፤
People with swollen wounds,
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እንዲሁም ደግሞ ሰውነታቸው ልምሾ ሆኖ መቆም ያቃታቸውም
and those who were lame and crippled
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እኚህ ሁሉ የተፈወሱበት ቦታ ነው።
all these were cured
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እግዚአብሄር አምላክ ገቢረ ተአምራትን የገለፀበት።
God has shown his miracles
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ያ ጊዜው የተመረጠበት ምክንያት አለ እንዴ በ1986 ?
Was there any reason for the year 1986, to be chosen?
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ነው ያጋጣሚ ነገር ነው በዚያ ጊዜ ስራ የተጀመረው?
Or was it quite by chance that the work began then?
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እሳቸው መንነው በ84 ዓ.ም ቀደም ብዬ ከገለፅኩት ሳራ ቅዱስ ሚካኤል ማለት ነው
He took up ascetic life in 1984 E.C. and came to Sara St. Michael that I mentioned earlier
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ከዚያ ቦታ ገብተው ሁለት ቤተ-መቅደስና አምስት አነስተኛ ፍልፍል ዋሻዎች ብያለሁ፤
There he carved two sanctuaries (Churches) and five smaller caves
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ከ84 በኋላ ደግሞ ፀሎት ሱባኤ በመያዝ
After 1984, he was asking in prayer
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ቀሪውን ጊዜ የሚያሳልፉበትንና የሚሰሩትን ስራ እመቤታችን መርታቸው በመንፈስ ቅዱስ ሃይል
where he would spend the rest of his life and our Lady (St. Mary) led him
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ወደዚህ ወደ ደብረ ከርቤ ዳግማዊ ጎሎጎታ ገዳም ሊገቡ ቻሉ ማለት ነው።
here to Dabra Karbe the Second Golgota monastery
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ይሄ እንግዲህ በተነሱበት ዘመን
This shows the time he began
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ቀጥሎ መስራት ያለባቸውን የጊዜ ሁኔታ
and then the time when he was supposed to get to work
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በመንፈስ ተነሳሽነት በሚያመለክታቸው ነው ማለት ነው።
inspired by the Spirit and as directed by him
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ዳግማዊ ጎሎጎታ ያለችበት ቦታ ስፍራ ክፍለ ሃገሩም ክልሉም ቦታውም አንድ ነው?
Is the Second Godlgota located in the same place, in the same region and in the same province?
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አንድ ነው።
It is the same
ከዳለቻ ነው ወይስ ሌላ ስም አላት ቦታዋ?
Is it Dalecha or does it have another name?
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ቅድም እንደ ገለፅኩት እምብላፄ ነው የሚባለው ልዩ ቦታዋ ማለት ነው።
As I mentioned earlier, the particular place is called Emblatse
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ዛንጅራ ቀበሌ ይባላል፤ በቀበሌ ገበሬ ማህበር የገጠሩ ህብረተሰብ ነው ገበሬዎች የሚኖሩበት።
The Kabale is Zanjira, it is the Kabale of the Farmers Association, where farmers live.
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ከዚያ ቦታ ላይ ዛንጅራ ገበሬ ማህበር ልዩ ስሙ እምብላፄ ትባላለች።
So there in Zanjira Farmer's Association, the place is called Emblatse
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የወረዳውስ ስም?
Name of the Warada?
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ወረዳው በዚህ በከተማው ክልል ደብረ ብርሃን ነው።
The warada is this city of Dabra Berhan
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ዳግማዊት ማርያም ጎሎጎታ ምክንያት አለው የተሰየመበት?
Was there any reason to dedicate the Church to the Second Mary [sic?] Golgota
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የሷ ታቦት እንዲሆን የተፈለገበት ከመጀመሪያው ታስቦ ነው ወይስ በኋላ ነው ፍልፍል ዋሻው ካለቀ በኋላ ታቦት የገባው?
Was it intended from the beginning to dedicate the Tabot for her, or was it after the cave was completely carved?
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ፍልፍል ዋሻዎቹ ከጨረሱ በኋላ ነው ታቦተ ህጉ የገባው።
The Tabot of the Law was placed after the the caves were completely carved out.
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በምን ተመረጠ የዳግማዊ...?
Why was the name the Second... chosen?
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በፀሎት ሁልጊዜ እንግዲህ በገዳም ያሉ አባቶች ለዚህ ደግሞ ታላቅ ስራ
By prayer. The monks in the monastery pray for this highly important work
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ለመስራት የመረጣቸው በፀሎት ላይ እያሉ በሚያሳስባቸው መሰረት
It is while they are in prayer and inasmuch as God made them mindful
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ነው እንግዲህ ስምና ስያሜም ማድረግ የሚገባቸው።
that they are supposed to come up with a name for the dedicatioin of the Church.
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እዚያ ቦታ ላይ ታቦተ ህጉ ገብቶ አገልግሎት መስጠት የሚጀምርበትን የሚገልፅላቸውና የሚነግራቸው በዚያ መሰረት ነው።
This is how God reveals to them the time when the Tabot needs to be placed in the sanctuary and the service should begin.
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ሁሉም የመንፈስ ቅዱስ ሃይል ነው የሚያነሳሳው።
Everything is initiated by the power of the Holy Spirit.
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አዎ።
yes
በሱባኤ መገለፅ ነው።
Was it revealed to them while in retreat?
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በሂደቱ በስራው እሳቸውን የደገፈ ሌላ አካል አለ እንዴ በገንዘብ ይሁን በአንዳንድ ነገር?
Was there any other agent that helped him in the process, either financially or in any other way?
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ፓትሪያርክ ፅህፈት ቤት ይሆናል ከየትም እንደው?
Either from the patriarchate or from anywhere?
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ምክንያቱም እዛ አሁን ሄደን ወደ ኩክ የለሽ አካባቢ
The reason I am asking is that, we were for instance in Kuk Yellesh area
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አባ አንዳንድ.. በጉልበት ያሰሩ ነበር፤ ትንሽ ትንሽ የቀን ስራም ይከፍሉ ነበር እንደሰማነው።
there we saw that Abba... was using some workingmen. And we have heard that he payed some amount for daily labour
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እዚህ እንዱደሱ ነገር አለ? ከላይ እርዳታ ድጋፍ ከሌላ ምንጭ?
Was there something similar here? Also was there any help and support from upper management or any other source?
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ከሌላ ምንጭ ምእመኑ በዚህ አምልኮተ እግዚአብሄርን ለመግለፅ እንደዚህ ቅዱሳን መካናት ላይ የሚመጣው
There was no other source than the contribution of the ordinary faithful.
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በማሰባሰብ የሚያመጡት እንጂ
which they bring to holy places like this
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ሲሰራም በገንዘብ ደረጃ ለዚያ ለሚሰራ ሰው ተሰጥቶት አይደለም።
And when they work, no payment was made to the workers
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ለየት የሚያደርገው እኚህ አባት ከዚያ ጀምሮ ሲሰሩ ራሳቸው ናቸው ቀርፀው የሚፈለፍሉት፤
What is special here is that it was this father alone who carved and formed.
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ነገር ግን አፈሩ በሚወጣበት ሰአት
It was only with the removal of the soil [that others helped]
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ለፀበል ራሳቸውን ለማዳን
those who came seeking for the holy water
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በመጡበት ሰአት ወደ እግዚአብሄር በቀረቡበት ሰአት እነሱ ያንን የበረከት ስራ ይሳተፉ ነበረ።
while they are around, before God, they were participating in the work, to get blessings
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እንዲሁም ደግሞ ገዳሙ ከተገደመ በኋላ ስራው እየተሰራ እያለ
And after the monastery was consecrated, as the work continued,
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መነኮሳቶች፣ እናቶችም አባቶችም በሚመጡበት ሰአት
monks and nuns who came to the place
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በዚያ ስር ሆነው ያንን ስራ ይሰራሉ አፈሩን ያወጣሉ፤
they helped with the work, casting aside the dust
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የሚያሰፈልጉትን ስራዎች ሁሉ ይራዳሉ ማለት ነው።
and doing all other necessary tasks
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ፍቃድ ይጠይቃሉ እንዴ ግን ወይስ እንደዚሁ በመንፈስ እግዚአብሄር ተነሳስተው ሲያመጣ
Would he ask permission or would he just start, as he is inspired by the Spirit of the Lord,
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ወዳመላከታቸው ቦታ ሄደው መቆፈር ይጀምራሉ እንዳት ነው ሂደቱ?
digging the place which God showed him? How is the process?
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ፈቃዱ ከእግዚአብሄር ነው ባመለከታቸው ቦታ ላይ።
[Ultimately] The permission comes from God. He would point him to the place.
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ከዚያ በኋላ ግን ያካባቢውም ሰው አውቆት ለዚያ ነገር
But after that, the people in the area would be informed of
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ተጠቃሚ ወይም ደግሞ አምልኮተ እግዚአብሄርን እንዲገልፁበት
the use for them in their worship of the Lord
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በቅርብ ካሉት ከሃገረ ስብከት የተወሰነ ድጋፍ ይኖራል።
and a certain support from the diocese
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አስቀድመው ግን እኚህ አባት ሲሰሩ እዚያ ቦታ ላይ በራሳቸው ገቡ፤
In the beginning, however, this father went to the place by himself
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እዚህ ቦታ ነው እግዚአብሄር አምላክ የመረጠልኝ ይህን ስራ መስራት አለብኝ ብለው ከአምላካቸው ጋራ በፀሎት እያሰቡ
considering that that was the place chosen for him by God. Through prayer and meditation, with the help of his God, he was determined to do the work
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ሲሰማ ወደዚህ ወደ ሃገረ ስብከቱ የአካባቢው ሰው በሚያሰማበት ሰአት
When people came to know, and inform the diocese here,
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እንዴት ነው አገልግሎቱ ሲባል
and were wondering about the service/use [of what was thus begun]
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እሳቸው ደግሞ ከዚያ ወጥተው የተነሳሱበትን መንፈሳዊ ህይወት እና መልካም አላማ በመግለፅ
he came out and explained his motivation, his spiritual life and the goal
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ተፈቀደ ማለት ነው።
thus it was permitted
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ጳጳሱም ያውቃሉ?
Did the bishop know?
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አዎ ያውቃሉ።
Yes he knows
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ጎብኝተዋል መጥተው?
Did he come and visit the place?
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አዎ።
Yes
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በየክብረ በአላቱ እየመጡ አባታችን
The bishop used to come on feast days
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ቃለ ቡራኬን፣ ትምህርት ላሉት ምእመኑ ለሚመጣው ለዚያ ለሚታደመው ህዝብ ሁሉ አስተምህሮ ይሰጡ ነበረ።
to teach and give benedictions to all the faithfuls that would gather there
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ታቦቱን ግን እሳቸው ናቸው ባርከው እንዲገባ ያደረጉት ወይስ እዚሁ በእናንተ..?
Was it the bishop who consecrated the Tabot and placed it, or was it you, the monks here?
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እሳቸው ናቸው። ብፁእ አባታችን አቡነ ኤፍሬም ናቸው።
It was consecrated and placed by his Grace Abuna Ephrem
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የመንግስትስ እነዚህ የአካባቢ ስልጠናዎች በዚህ ሂደት ውስጥ ሚና አላቸው ተሳትፎ አላቸው እንደዚህ ቦታ የመፍቀድ ያለ መፍቀድ?
What was the role of government officials of the area? Did they participate? Did they have authority to permit or not to permit?
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ተሳትፎ አላቸው ለሚሰራው የልማት ስራ አባታችን አባ ገብረ ኪዳን ገብረ ማርያም
They did have participation. In regards to the developmental work, our father Abba Gabra Kidan Gabra Maryam
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ፍልፍል ዋሻዎችን እየሰሩ እያለ አብሮ ያለውን ልማት ነው የሚያለሙት።
side by side to the carving of the caves, he used to do developmental works.
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ገደላማ የሆነውን ከዚያ የሚፈለፈለውን ድንጋይም ሆነ ደቃቁንም
He used the stones he cut out for making terraces on the cliffy area
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ወደ አፈርነት አብሮ ለልማት እንዲያገለግል ጠንካራው ደግሞ እርከን መስራትና አፈሮችን አቅፎ እንዲይዝ ማለት ነው
to protect the soil from eroding, and the dust for enriching the soil
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ይህንን ስራ ይሰሩ ነበረ።
He used to do all this.
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ይህን ስራ በማየት የመንግስት አካልም ድጋፍ ይሰጣቸው ነበረ ለሚሰራው ስራ።
Seeing this good work, government officials used to provide him with their support
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በአሁኑ ሰአት አገርህን እወቅ በሚል ፕሮግራም ምእመኑ ወደዚያ በሚመጡበት ሰአት
Currently, there is a programme called "Know thy land," and when the people involved in that programme come to the place
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ተማሪ ከትምህርት ቤቱ ከመንግስት ትምህርት ቤት ከግል ትምህርት ቤቶች አሁንም እየሄዱ ትምህርት የሚወስዱበት ነው።
students from government as well as private schools come to the place and they learn
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ከመንፈሳዊ አገልግሎቱ ጎን የዚህ አይነቱን የመንፈስ ጥንካሬ ስራ የልማት ስራዎችን የሚማሩበት ቦታ ነው።
the spiritual service as well as the developmental work there, and the power of the spirit in all this.
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ሰበካ ጉባኤው አንድ ነው? አለ ከእርሶጋ የሚሰራ?
Is the Parish Council the same? Do you have [such council] that works with you?
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የዚህ የአካባቢው?
[the Parish Council] of this area?
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የገዳማውያኑ ብቻ ነው አሁን ቤተ ክርስትያኑን አገልግሎት የሚሰጠው፤ አምልኮት የሚገልፁበት፤ ምእመኑም ይመጣል፤
[The council that works with me] is only that of the monastery in which we give service and worship. In fact there come people from among the ordinary faithful as well.
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ነገር ግን የዚያ የቀበሌው ምእመናን የሚጠቀምበት ሌላ የዮሃንስ ቤተ ክርስትያን አለ።
But there is another Church [not a monastery], the Church of Yohannes (of St. John) to whose Parish people of the area belong
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ሌላ ተጨማሪ ነበረ እዛ አካባቢ ዳግማዊ ጎሎጎታ ከመፈልፈላ በፊት?
Was there any other Church in the area before the Second Golgota was carved out?
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ከመፈልፈሉ በፊት ከአባቶች ካለው አካባቢ
Before it was carved out,
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ቀደም ብለው የነበሩ በፀሎት እዚያ ቦታ ላይ ተሰውረው ያሉ እንዳለ ይነግሩናል።
we are told that there were hidden saints in that place praying
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አንዳንድ የመንፈሳዊ ቦታ ለመሆኑም ከቤተ ክርስትያን
As an indication that there was a Church in the area very long ago,
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አገልግሎት መስጫዎች እንደ ፅና እንደ ደውል ነገር ያሉትን
We have found Chruch items
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ከቦታው ላይም ያገኘንበትም ሰአት አለ።
such as censers and bells
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ቀደም ብሎ በዚያ ተሰውረው ያሉ ፀሎት የሚፀልዩ አባቶችም እነዳሳለፉበት ማለት ነው።
that there stayed long ago hidden fathers praying and meditating
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እንጂ ሰፊ ፍልፍል ዋሻዎች የሉበትም።
but there were no wide caves
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እንዲሁ አነስተኛ እንደ ፎካአ ነገሮች ጥቂት ጥቂት በዚያች ተጠልለው ጭራሮ በዚያ በመከለል
there were little chamberlike holes fenced with sticks wherein they (the hidden fathers) were sheltered
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እንዳሳለፉበት ነው የሚነገረው።
we are told they stayed there
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ይሄ እንኳ እንደው የግሌ ነው ለማወቅ አንዳንዴ ብዙ ጊዜ እጓጓለሁ።
No this is my personal wish to know,
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መሰወር ሲባል ተደበቁ ነው በዚያ በዋሻ ክልል ሰው እንዳያያቸው ነው ወይስ በአካል ራሱ በስጋ ይሰወራሉ?
When we say "hidden" is it the case that they hide themselves in hidden places so that ordinary people would not see them, or would their body literally become invisible?
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ማየትም አይቻልም እነዚህን ቅዱሳን?
Is it not possible to see these [hidden] saints?
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ቅዱሳን አባቶቻችንን አዎ የሚሰወሩትን አናያቸውም።
Yes we cannot see our holy fathers, those who reached the level of being hidden
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ያ ብቃትን ይጠይቃል።
To see them requires that we reach a certain level of adequacy
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ወደ እምነታችን በኦርቶዶክስ ተዋህዶ ሃይማኖት
According to our Orthodox Tewahedo faith,
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ብቃት ላይ ሰዎች በሃጥያታችን ምክንያት የሚሸፍነን ነገር ይኖራል።
in regards to worthiness, things get hidden from us because of our sins
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ቀና አስተሳሰብ ባለማሰባችን።
due to lack of good thoughts
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ሌሎቹ ግን ንፁሃን አባቶቻችን
but those pure fathers of ours
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እግዚአብሄር አምላክ ባዘዛቸው የሚሄዱ ለህጉ ተገዢ የሆኑ የሚያዩዋቸው አሉ።
the ones who abide by the law of God and are obedient, they can see a lot of things
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ስለዚህ ተሰወሩ የምንለው በአፀደ ስጋ እያሉ ግዙፍ አካል ለብሰው እያለ እየተንቀሳቀሱ እኛ የማናይበትም አለ
Thus, when we say they are hidden, it is that even when they are still "in the field of flesh," that is, even when they still move around in flesh, we may not be able to see them.
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ቦታቸውም ውስን ቦታ ላይ ተቀምጠው በፀሎት ብቻ የሚተጉ ናቸው።
And they stay in a limited place and busy themselves in prayer
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እርግጥ እዛ ቦታውን ብናይ ደስ ይለን ነበር፤ ብንጎበኝ፤ መቼም በጆሮ የሰሙትን በአይን ማየት ጥሩ ነው።
Actually, we would have loved to see the place, as it would be good to see with our eyes all that we have heard with our ears
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ቦታው እንደተባለው ራሳቸው አባ ገብረ ኪዳን ናቸው ያው በእግዚአብሄር ምሪት ነው ብለናል።
As was said, the place was established by Abba Gabra Kidan himself, guided in fact by God
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የድንጋዩ አይነት መጀመሪያ ጥናት አደረጎ ወይስ በቃ መቆፈር ጀመሩ?
Was the type of the stone studied beforehand? Or did he just start digging?
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እንግዲህ ጥናት መንፈሳዊ ቦታዎችን እንደ ጥናት በምንወስድበት ሰአት
The study is one in spirit. When we speak of studying places
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በአሁኑ ሰአት በዘመናዊ መሳሪያዎች ተመራምሮ ይህ ለዚህ ይሆናል፣
nowadays people use modern instruments to say this place is appropriate for such and such purpose
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ይህ ነገር እዚህጋ ይገኛል የሚለውን ነገር አስበው አይደለም።
In his case, however, it was not like that, he did not think in that manner
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መሃንዲሱ/ቀያሹ ለዚያ ነገር ቦታው ላይ
the designer/the engineer for that place
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ከመነሻው እስከ መድረሻው ታግሎ ፍፃሜ ላይ መድረሱን እግዚአብሄር አምላክ ነው የሚያመለክታቸው።
It was God who directed him as to how it would come to a finish, after toiling from the beginning to the end
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የፀሎት ሂደቶች ናቸው ቅዱሳን መካናቶች እናይሄንን የመሰለ ነው።
The whole process is one of prayer. Such was the case
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ምንም እከሌም አግዘኝ፣ ጥናትም የለም፤ አግዘኝ እንጀምርም፣ ምክክርም አያደርጉም?
Did he not ask anyone for help, no study, no support to begin, no discussion?
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የለም።
no!
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አቅጣጫውንስ ሲወስኑ ለምሳሌ እዚህ ቦታ ነው፣
Even when he determines the directions
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በዚህ መልክ ይሁን፣ እንደዚህ ይሁን የሚሉበት ሂደትስ የሰሙት አለ ከአባ ገብረ ኪዳን?
the shape, for it to be this way or that. Have you heard anything of this sorts from Abba Gabra Kidan?
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ምክርን ያስመለከታቸውንና በዛሬው እለት ይሄን መስት አለብኝእዚያች ቦታ ብለው
When he gotthe direction and guidance from God, and when he decided what to do,
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በቅርብ በእውነት እስራቸው አሳልፌአለሁ።
I was truly close to him
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በአንድ ክፍል ውስጥ ተቀምጠን
staying in one room
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በአንድ ምናኔ ህይወት ዘመን ነው ያሳለፍነው፤ 84ዓ.ም ከዚሁ ከደብረ ገነት ሳራ ቅዱስ ሚካኤል ጀምሮ።
we spent our ascetic lives together, starting from 84 E.C. at this same Sara St. Michael
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ያመለከታቸውን ያሳሰባቸውን ነው የሚነግሩኝ።
He used to tell me whatever God orders him to do
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ከዚያ በኋላ ወደ ስራው ነው የሚገቡት።
After that, he got to work
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እና ከስራቸው ሆኜ እኔም የአቅሜን ማውጣት የሚገባኝን ቅድም እንደተናገርኩት
As I said earlier, I too was under him and would help him as much as I could
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አፈሩን በማውጣት እራዳቸው ነበር፤ እንዲሁም ደግሞ ለቁመተ ስጋ የምትሆነውን
taking the refuse away, and also in regards to the survival of his flesh
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ምግብ በማዘጋጀት ማለት ነው።
tht is, preparing food for him
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ደረቅ ነገሮችን ኮቾሮ እንዲህ የመሳሰሉትን ነገሮች ማለት ነው፤ የሱባኤ ምግቦች
dry food like "kochoro", [very simple] foods that are usually consumed during retreat
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በጥቅሉ አነጋገር የሱባኤ ምግቦችን ከዛ ቦታ ላይ አዘጋጅላቸውና
In general, I used to prepare food for retreat
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የራሴን የስራ ድርሻ በፀሎት እተጋ ነበር ማለት ነው።
and do my part of the work as I busy myself in praying
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የእግዚአብሄር ምልከታ አለ ግን መጠኑ ሲወሰንስ? አሁን ሲናያቸው ዋሻዎች ፍልፍል የተለያዩ ናቸው።
Well there is God's guidance. But what about the size? When we look them now the sizes of the caves are different.
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መጠናቸው አንዱ ጠባብ አንዱ ሰፊ፤
one is narrow while the other is wide
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መጠኑ በምን እንደተወሰነ ይታወቃል ደግማዊ ጎሎጎታ?
Do we know how the size was determined, that is, the size of the Second Golgota?
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መጠኑን... በመሰረቱ
The size... basically
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ባለ ሰው ለመነጋገር የራሴ ድርሻ ያየሁትን ነገር ለመመስከር ካልሆነ በስተቀር
Unless to say what I have myself witnessed,
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ከነ መጠናቸው የተወሰነ የሚገልፁበትም አለ በዚህ በዶኩመንተሪ ፊልሙ ላይ።
there is a source where he himself explains the sizes, the documentary film
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በራሳቸው አስረጂነት ነው በእያንዳንዱ ክፍሎች ውስጥ ገብተው ሲያስረዱ
[there we can see him] entering in each room and explaining why
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በዚያ ቦታ ላይ ምን እንዳነሳሳቸው ሁሉ የሚናገሩበትም አለ፤ ለዚህ የሚረዳን ነገር ከባለ ታሪኩ።
he did what he did in each room and what motivated him to do so. So it is better to hear from the maker of the history himself.
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ስለዚህ ምንድነው ቅድም ያሉት ነገር አለ፤
So how was it done? You said earlier
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በአሁኑ ጊዜ አጥኚው ሌላ ነው በዘመናዊው ስንሄድ፤ አጥኚው ሌላ ነው፣ ፕላን የሚያወጣው ሌላ ነው፣ የሚገነባው ሌላ ነው፣ ተቆጣጣሪው...
"Nowadays the one who studies the place is different from the one who drafts the design, and this in turn is different from the builder, and from the auditer..."
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ይሄ ግን ሁሉንም ነገር በአንድ ነው ማለት ነው፤ እና እንደሱ ነው የሳቸውም?
But in this case, was it all done by one person? Was it he
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እቅዱንም ያወጡት፣ ዲዛይኑንም
who planned as well as designed it?
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ይሄን አይነት ቅርፅ ይያዝ፣ በዚህ መስቀል ይሁን፣ በዚህ መስቀለኛ ይሁን ብለው
Deciding the shape to be in such and such a way, to put a cross here and to make a crosslike shape there?
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ይሄ ክፍል ይሁን በዚህጋ ቅዱስ ቦታ ይሁን ያሉት እሳቸው ናቸው?
assigning the purposes of the rooms and separating the space to be regarded as holy (sanctuary)?
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እሳቸው ናቸው አዎ።
Yes he is the one who did all this
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ምንም የተለየ የሚታወቅ ነገር የለም የረዳቸው በፕላኑ በካርታ እንደዚህ?
Was there no other who helped him in planning, or mapping etc?
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ምንም የረዳቸው ነገር የለም።
No one helped him.
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ራሳቸው ባመለከታቸው መሰረት ነው ሲሰሩ የነበረው።
It was he himself who made it all, as God guided him.
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ሌላ ሃይል እዚያ ቦታ ላይ መጥቶ ወይም ደግሞ በዚህ አይነት መሰራት አለበት ብሎ ምክር የሰጠ የለም።
There was no other power who came there and advised how he should go about the work.
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መሬቱ ቅርፅ እንደዚ ወይም ደግሞ ከፍታውም እንደዚ ይሁን ያለ?
None who said the shape should be like this or that and the hight this much tall?
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የለም አዎ።
There was none.
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ቅርፁ ይሄን ይመስላል እንደዚህ ብሎ ከተገነባ በኋላ የተሳለ ነገር አለ?
Was there a picture/painting that was made after the cave was made, showing the shape [of it]?
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አይ የስእል ምስሎች የሉም፤ ዋሻዎቹ ውስጥ ምናልባት የመስቀል ቅርፅ
There are no pictures in the caves. Perhaps only an outline of the Cross
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ካለው ከዚሁ ፍልፍል ዋሻ መስቀል የተሰራ አለ።
In fact there is a cross made among the rockhewn caves
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ያ መስቀል እንደዚሁ ከጣራው ጋራ ተያይዞ በአራቱም መአዘን ገፅታ ያለውና የተቀመጠበትም መስቀል የሆነ፤
That cross is connected to the roof and faced on all four corners and it rested on a cross [-like base]
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ሌሎችም በሚስጥራት እንዲሁ የተቀረፁ የመሰቦ ወርቅ ይዘት/ቅርፅ ያላቸው ማለት ነው፤ ወይም ደግሞ እንደ ፅዋ ይሄም አለ።
And there are others that are outlined in the images of sacramental items like "masobawarq" (the basketwork for the Host) and the chalice (the Eucharistic cup)
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በሚስጥራተ ቤተ ክርስትያን የሚያስተምሩበት ከነዚህ ከፍልፍል ዋሻዎቹ ቅድም እንደተናገርኩት
As I said earlier, there are things in these caves that are illustrative of the sacraments of the Church
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ገላጭ ዶኩመንተሪ ፊልም ነው እነዚህን ሁሉ ማየት የምንችልበት ነው።
The documentary film describes them and we can see all this in it
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እሱን እናያለን እንዳሉት።
we will watch it, as you said.
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እሺ።
okay
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አሁን እሱ አንዱ የሱ ሙያ ምንድነው..
Now he [Prof. Gervers?], one of his professions is
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አንድ ነገር ከተሰራ በኋላ ካርታውን ያወጣዋል ለክቶ።
after one thing is made, he makes the map, measuring it
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አሃ በዚህ መልክ ነው ብሎ ኮምፒዩተር ላይ የሚሰራ አለ ተገጣጥሞ እና
realizing how it was made, he puts it together on a computer. And so
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ወይም ወደፊት እንግዲህ.. ከዛ አለ ራሱ መፅሃፍ የሌላ የሰራው እዛ ትግራይ ውስጥ የሰራውን
we may in the future [ask him to make one for this Church]... He has published a book on his work in Tigray
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ወይ ያሳዮታል እስቲ አሳያቸው እንለዋለን።
He may show you, we will ask him to show you
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አስታውሰን ስንጨርስ እና ምንድነው የሚጠቅመው
when we are done [with the interview]. It is important because
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እዚህ ላልመጣ ሰው እንዲመጣና እንዲያይ የቅርፁን ሃሳብ ይሰጣል።
it will give a picture of the place for those who did not come and visit the place
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ያይና ይለካውና በኋላ ያስቀምጠዋል ማለት ነው።
Having seen and measured it, he he will put it down [in picture] afterwards
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ሌላ ጊዜ ቢሆን እንደሱ ፕላኑን መጀመሪያ ይወጣና ወደ ተግባር ይሄዳል፤ በዘመናዊው።
In modern practice, the plan is designed first and then only follows the actual work
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አሁን ግን አሰራሩ እንግዲህ እነዚህ ሰዎች ታሪኩን ሰነድ ሲኖር ሰነዱ በዛ መልክ የዘጋጅለታል ማለት ነው።
But now, following the way they did it here, [the design] can only be prepared based on the historical documents
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የዚህ ፍልፍል ዋሻ ቅርፅ ነው እንድዚህ አይነት መጠን አለው፤ የበሩ መጠን ይሄ ነው፤ የጣራው መጠን ይሄ ነው የሚል።
Determining the size and shape of this rockhewn cave, the size of its doors, of its roof
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እስቲ እንግዲህ ካየነው በኋላ ምናልባት
So we may determine that after we see it
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የድንጋዩን አይነት ያውቁታል?
Do you know what type of stone it is?
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የድንጋዩ አይነት ለስላሳ ነው።
The stone is smooth
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አዎ ጠንካራ ድንጋይ አይደለም።
It is not strong
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ሌላም.. አሁን እንግዲህ አንድ አይነት ሳይሆን ወደ ሁለት ሶስት አይነት ይዘት ያለው።
And... it is not of one type only, maybe it is of two or three types
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ለስለስ ያለ ነው በብዛት የሚገኝበት ማለት ነው።
mostly, it is smooth
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ይሄ አሁን እንደተባለው ቅድም አንዳንዱ ነገር ብናየው ወዲያው...
As mentioned earlier, if we consider certain things...
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ምን ይመስላል ከሌላ ፍልፍል ዋሻጋ የሚመሳሰል ነገር አለው? ወይ ራሱን የቻለ ነው፡
Does it have any similarity with other rockhewn Churches? Or, is it one of a kind?
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በቅርፁ በአይነቱ?
In its shape and form
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የቦታው አቀማመጥ
The way the place is situated
የቦታው አቀማመጥ ከእንትንጋ ይመስላል የሚባል ነገር አለ ወይስ እንደው እራሱን የቻለ ልዩ ነው?
Can the situation of the place be compared to some other place or is it completely different?
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ትናንት ባያችሁት ለምሳሌ ሳራ ቅዱስ ሚካኤል
is as you saw in Sara St. Michael yesterday,
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እንደዚያው አቀማመጥ ነው።
it is situated like that
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ገደሎቹ እንደዚህ ቀጥ ያለ ገደል ባለበት ቦታ ላይ
the cliffs are extremely steep
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በዚያው አካባቢ በተወሰነ ስፋት ባለው ሰዎች መንቀሳቀሻና የሚተላለፉበት የሚሰሩበት ቦታ
they have only limited space for the workers to walk and move around
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ውስን ውስን የገደል ቦታዎች ናቸው ያሉት።
they are situated in limited high cliffs
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የዚያን አይነት ይዘት ነው።
it is like that
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ቅርፁ የቦታው አቀማመጥ ያንን ነው የሚመስለው
the shape and the situation of the place looks like that
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ድንጋዮቹም ይመሳሰላሉ፤ አፈራቸው ማለት ነው።
even the stones are similar, I mean the ground
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እና ያን የመሰለ ነው።
so it is like that
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በትክክል የተጀመረበት ቀን ይታወቃል?
Do you know the exact day on which it was started?
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የተጀመረበት ቅድም እንደተናገርኩት ታህሳስ 5 1986 ነው።
As I said earlier, it was started on Tahesas 5, 1986 E.C. [December 14, 1993]
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በዚህ በደብረ ከርቤ ዳግማዊ ጎሎጎታ ሲመጣ ቅርብ ነው።
It is closer when we come to this Dabra Karbe the Second Golgota
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በዚያ ቦታ ላይ መጀመሪያ የገቡበት በሳራ ቅዱስ ሚካኤል 1984 ሰኔ 4 ቀን ነው።
When we consider Sara St. Michael, he first came there Sane 4, 1984 E.C. [June 11, 1992]
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የተጠናቀቀው?
Was it completed then?
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የተጀመረው።
It was begun
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የገቡበት እዚያ ቦታ ላይ፤ አዎ።
I mean the time he first came there.
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ታህሳስ 5 1986።
Tahesas 5, 1986
ጎሎገጎታ የተጀመረው ታህሳስ 5 1986?
The work in Golgota began in Tahesas 5, 1986?
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የተጠናቀቀበት ጊዜስ ይታወቃል?
When was it completed?
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አብሮ ከልማት ስራውጋ ስለሆነ በፍልፍልዋሻዎቹ ቢደመር ከሁለት ብዙ ያለፈ አይሆንም።
It should not exceed considerably more than two years; that is, including the time spent for the developmental work, in addition to the carving of the caves.
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ነጠሎ በእያንዳንዱ ያሉትን ጊዜያቶች አዳምሮ ሁለት አመት ነው የሚሆነው።
calculating separately and then adding them up together, it may be two years.
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ግን የልማት ስራው ይበዛል፤ ገደላማ ቦታ ስለሆነ
But the the developmental work must have taken more time [than the carving of the caves]
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መንገዶቹ መሰራት ለዚያ ቦታ መንቀሳቀሻ በመሆኑ ማስተካከል
As it involoves paving the roads, to create space for movement
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የሚያሰፈልጉትን ገቢ ምንጮች ለዚያ የሚሆኑ አፀዶችንና ፍራፍሬ አትክልቶችን በመትከል
putting in place the necessary resources, planting trees and fruits
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በዚህ በዚህ አብሮ ያለው ቆይታ ነው እሳቸው ባሉበት ዘመን።
we stayed together in such a way as long as he was there
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ይሄ ደቂቀ እስጢፋኖስን አስታወሱኝ የልማት ስራም ይሰሩ ነበረ።
This reminds me of Daqiqa Estifa, they used to do developmental work as well
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የዚህ የልማት ስራ አብሮ የስራ ሃላፊነትም ነው እንዲሁ አንዳንድ ሰው በራሱ በመነሳሳት የሚያደርገው ነገር ነው?
Was the developmental work one of the responsibilities [of the monastery], or was it left for motivated individuals?
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ለስራው ላካባቢው በማሰብ ነው?
Was it for the sake of the surrounding area?
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እርሶም አሁን ልማት ያካሂዳሉ እንዳየነው።
As we see you, you still do the
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ልማት ቤተ ክርስትያናችን ብዙ የምትጠራበት ነው።
Our Church is famous for development
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አፀዶች ሲታዩ በቤተ ክርስትያን ዙሪያ ላይ ብዙ እናያለን።
Trees are seen around Churches
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ሌላው እኙህ አባት የተሰጣቸው ፀጋ ነው።
It is a gift of this father
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በእውነት ወጥቶ ወረዶ ሰርቶ ራስን መርዳት ይፈልጋሉ።
He truly wanted to help himself by toiling
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ለሃገርሞ ቅርስ የሚሆነውን ነገር መስራት ስለሚፈልጉ
He wanted to leave a legacy for his country
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ለብዙዎች ሰዎች አስተማሪ ነበሩ።
He was a teacher for many
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በስራ ይተጋሉና።
he worked diligently
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በዚህም ምክንያት ባሉበት ህይወት ዘመን
And so, in his life time
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በመንግስት ደረጃ ለልማት ብዙ ቦታ ይወስዷቸው ነበረ።
Even government officials used to take him to places for development work
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በአርአያነት መልእክት እንዲያስተላልፉ።
so that he would address people and inspire them
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በዚህም ሁኔታ ላይ በተለያየ ጊዜ ይሄ ገዳም ሽልማት ያገኘበት ሁኔታ አለ።
For this reason, the monastery has received awards on special occasions.
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በዚሁ ዘመን በክልል ደረጃ በአንደኝነት የተሸለመበት
It once stood first at a regional level and received an award
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እንደዚሁም ደግሞ በአገር አቀፍ በፌደራል ደረጃ ላይም ከፕሬዝዳንቱ የተሸለሙበት ሰአት አለ።
At the federal level also, it received an award from the President of the Country.
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ሰፊ ቦታ ኖሮ ሳይሆን
Not because it had a vast portion of land,
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ጠባቡን ወደ ሰፊነት መለወጥ፤
But rather, by turning the narrow space into a wide one.
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ሰው እንደልብ መንቀሳቀስ የማይችልበትን አካባቢን መስሎ አልምቶ
By changing the place where people cannot even move around
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ራስን መርዳት የሚቻልበት
and showing how to help oneself
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አካባቢውን አጥንቶ ለዚህ ቦታ ምን ያሰፈልጋል? ምን አይነት አፀድ ነው የሚሆነው
By studying the surrounding aree and determining what was needed for it, which type of trees to plant
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ምን አይነት ፍራፍሬዎች ናቸው ሊለምዱ የሚችሉት በሚል
what type of fruits could grow there
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በዚህ አይነት ሁኔታ ላይ እሳቸውንም ተከትለን
in this way, and we have been following in his footsteps
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እኛም መነኮሳቶቹ ሴቶቹም እናቶች ማለት ነው
we monks and nuns
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አባቶችም ስንሰራ የነበረበት ነው።
and fathers, used to work
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በዚህም መንግስት በሰፊው የሚያውቀው ነው ይሄን ገዳም።
and so the monastery was widely known, even by the government
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ጎንለጎን ከልማቱ ጋር እየተሰራ ነው እንጂ ሁለት አመት ላይፈጅ ይችል ነበር ማለት ነው?
So the work would not have taken two years, if there was no developmental work side by side?
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ብቻውን በቀጥታ ቢሰራ?
If the focus was entirely on the cave?
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ለብቻ ፍልፍል ዋሻዎቹ ሁለት አመት ይፈጃል።
the caves alone would take two years.
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ከልማቱ ጋራ ስንል
When we say with the development
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የቆዩበት እሳቸው በስራ አለም ስናስበው ለማለት ነው እንጂ
we mean the time he spent working
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ፍልፍል ዋሻዎቹ ብቻ ሁለት አመት ነው።
the rockhewn caves alone took two years
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ስራው ከጠዋት እስከ ማታ ነበረ የሚሰራው?
Was he working from the morning to evening?
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ከጠዋት እስከ ማታ ይሰሩ ነበረ አዎ።
Yes, he was working from morning to evening
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ጠዋት ስንት ሰአት ይጀመራል ለምሳሌ?
What time in the morning would he start, for instance?
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ሰአት በየ እለቱ ውስን ሰአት አይወስኑም።
There was no fixed time for each day
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አስራ ሁለት ሰአት ከአስራ አንድም ሰአት ሊነሱ ይችላሉ። በጣም ትጉ ናቸው ለስራው።
It could be 6:00 A.M. or even 5:00 A.M. He was so diligent.
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በማታም አምሽተው ይሰራሉ።
Also in the evening, he worked until late.
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የተወሰነች የእንቅልፍ/ፀሎት ደግሞ የሚያረፉበት ውስን ናት።
His sleep time was very limited, there was time for prayer also
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ይህ ነው እንግዲህ ለየት የሚያደርገው በገዳም።
This is what distinguishes a monastery
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ስጋ የምትገሰፅበት ነው።
It is a place where the body is rebuked
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ተግታ የምትሰራበት እና እግዚአብሄርን የምታገለግልበት ቦታ ነው።
where it has to work hard and serve God
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ጠዋትም ማታም እንደዚህ የተወሰነ ሰአት የተለመደ የተወሰነ ሰአት የለም ማለት ነው?
Did not he have fixed time, neither in the morning nor in the evening?
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መግቢያ መውጫ ይሄን ያህል የምንለው...
when he gets to work and when he leaves...
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የፀሎት ሰአቶች በፀሎት የሚተጉ አባቶች ስላሉ
As to the times of prayer, there are fathers for that
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በዚያ በፀሎት ወስነው
they fix their time for prayer
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የጊዜያዊ ፀሎቶችን ማለት ነው፤
that means, for the standard prayers to be said at specific times of the day
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ቤተ ክርስትያናችን በምታዘው መሰረት ነው፤ የሚተጉ ደግሞ አባቶች አሉ ማለት ነው ለፀሎቱ።
in accordance with the Church's rules--there are fathers for that
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እረፍትስ የሚያደርጉበት ሰአት?
When did he rest?
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ከጠዋት እስከ ማታ በቀጥታ ይሰራል?
Did he work from morning to evening continuously?
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ይሰራሉ፤ እረፍት ከማታው ከአስራ ሁለት ሰአት በኋላ
Yes he worked continuously. He rested after 6:00 P.M.
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ለፀሎት ከዚያ በኋላ ደግሞ በለሊቱም ለፀሎት ካረፉ በኋላ ደግሞ
He would pray and rest in the night and again
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እረፍት ወስደው በፀሎት ይተጋሉ ማለት ነው።
after he rested a little, he would get up for prayer
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በጠዋት ደግሞ የሚነሱበት ሰአት ከአስራ አንድ ሰአትም ጀምሮ የሚነሱበትም ጊዜ አለ።
He gets up for work at 5:00 A.M. in the morning
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አስራ ሁለት ሰአትም ተነስተው የሚሰሩበት አለ።
Sometimes at 6:00 A.M.
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ለሊትስ የመስራት ልማደ ነበረ ባህል ለሊቱን?
How about at night? Was there a custom of working at night?
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ለሊቱን የሚሰሩበት የፀሎት ጊዜያታቸውን ከጨረሱ በኋላ
At night after having said his prayers,
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ወደ ስራው ነው የሚሳተፉት ለሊት ላይ።
he gets to work
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በእርግጥ የሚተጉበት አለ፤ ሁልጊዜ ያንን የለሊቱንም ሰአት ይጠቀሙበታል ሙሉውን ለማለት ስለሚያስቸግር እንጂ
In fact he uses the time of the night as well, although we can't say that he worked the whole night
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የፀሎት ጊዜያቸውን ከጨረሱ በኋላ ለስራ ይተጋሉ ከለሊቱ።
Once he was done with his prayers, he would get to work
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ስለዚህ የአንድ ቀን ውሏችሁ ምን ይመስላል ለምሳሌ?
So how did his routine of the day look like, for instance?
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ጧት ይነሳሉ ቁርስ ተበልቶ ነው የሚገባው ወይስ ቁርስ ሳይበላ ነው?
As he got up in the morning, would he have his breakfast or would he go to work before breakfast?
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ፀሎት ተደርጎ ነው እንዴተ ነው?
Would he pray before starting?
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የስራው ቀን ምን ይመስላል?
How did his work day look like?
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የስራው ቀን በገዳማት
As to the work day, in monasteries
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የሚመገቡት.. ከጠዋቱ አይመገቡም።
no food is served in the morning;
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በሰባት ሰአት እና ዘጠኝ ሰአት
some eat at 1;00P.M. and some at #:00 P.M.
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ዘጠኝ ሰአት ነው፤ ከፀሎቱጋ የተመሳሰለ ነው፤ ሰባት ሰአት ከዚያ ተመግበው
It is like the prayer. After having lunch at 1:00 A.M.
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ከሰባት ሰአት በኋላ የሉትን የስራ ጊዜያት እሰከ አስራ ሁለት ሰአት
He would continue working until 6:00 P.M.
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ከዚያ ደገሞ ወደ እራት ምግብ ነው።
And after that is dinner
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አዎ እስከ ሰባት ሰአት ይሰራል።
Yes, he would work until 1:00 A,M.
እስከ ሰባት ግን ይሰራሉ? ባይበሉም ስራ አለ?
But he would work until 1:00 A.M. even though he would not have eaten?
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በአርድእቶች ስራ ነው፤ እንግዲህ በፀሎት አባቶች ደግሞ ዘጠኝ ሰአት ነው የሚመገቡት።
This is for the disciples assigned to work. The fathers who primarily pray, will have food only at 3:00 P.M.
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አዎ ዘጠኝ ሰአት።
Yes, until 3:00
ውለው ቁርስም ሳይበሉ?
Do they stay without having breakfast?
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ግን እራት ይኖራል?
Will there be Dinner?
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እራት ይኖራል አዎ።
Yes there is
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ምን ያህል ሰአት እንደሚጠፋ ይታወቃል በስራው ላይ?
How long would they spend working?
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እንደው በአማካይ ሲሰሩ?
in average?
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ሰአቱን ለመተመን ያስቸግራል።
It is hard to say the exact amount of time;
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የእረፍት ጊዜ ይሄን ያህል ሰፊ አለ የምንለው ነገር የለም።
They do not have long breaks
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ከማታው የሚያርፉበት ከአስራ ሁለት በኋላ ካልሆነ በስተቀር
Unless only after 6:00 PM.
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ቀኑን ሙሉ ይሰራል።
They work the whole day
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እንዲሁም ደግሞ ቀን ምሳ ሰአት ላይ ያለችው ጊዜያት ብቻ ናት።
Maybe they have lunch break
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እንጂ ሌላው ሙሉ የስራ ሰአት ነው።
Other than that they work all the time
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ከዚሁ ጋራ የቤተ ክርስትያን በአላቶች አሉ።
Besides, there are feast days of the Church
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እነኛ በአላቶች ይከበራሉ። አዎ።
አዎ፤ እሱ እሱ የማይሰራበት ቀን ነው።
Oh yes, it is not allowed to work on those days
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እንደ ቡድን ሆነው የሚሰረራ አብሯቸው አለ የሚያግዛቸው ግን ሁሉን ስራ የሚቆጣጠሩት የሚመሩት እሳቸው ናቸው?
Was there a group of workers that helped him, which group he would controll and lead?
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ወይስ ሌላ አንድ እርሶንም ጨምሮ እንደ አንድ እንደ ቡድን አለ አባላቶች ያሉት?
Was there a kind of group including yourself and other monks?
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ቤተ ክርስትያናችን በገዳም በተለይ የራሱ ማእረግና
In our Chruch, especially in monasteries, there are levels
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በዚያ የስራ ክፍፍል መሪ መሪ አለው።
and division of labour. And each divison has its own leader.
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በዚህ አይነት ሊቀ ረድ አለ ከስር የሚያሰራ ማለት ነው።
There is thus "Liqa Rad'" (Head of Disciples), he is
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ሊቀ ረድ ይባላል፤ ከስር ያሉት አርድእቶችን የሚመራ።
Liqa Rad', that is, a lead hand for the disciples under him
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ከዚያ በላይ ደግሞ መጋቢ አለ።
above him is "Megabi" (Steward)
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ሌሎችም የስራ እንቅስቃሴዎችን ከቤተ ክርስትያን ጋራ አድርጎ የቤተ ክርስትያን አገልግሎትን የሚቆጣጠር።
who is responsible for the services of the Church and who controls other activities of the Church as well
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ከዚያ በላይ አመቢ/አመብኔቱ ማለት ነው፤ ወይም የገዳሙ አሰተዳዳሪ።
above him is the Abbot, the adminstrator of the monastery
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እነዚህ ቅደም ተከተሎች በቤተ ክርስትያናችን አሉ ማለት ነው።
there is this heirachy in our Church
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እነዚህ በእንደዛ መልክ ይሳተፋሉ ለፍልፈላ ዋሻ ወይስ አባ ብቻ ነበሩ ስራውን የሚመሩት?
Were all this levels participate in the work of the caves or was it Abba alone who did it?
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አበምኔቱ፣ መጋቢው?
the abbot, the steward,
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በልማት ስራው ላይ ነው እንጂ በፍልፍል ዋሻዎቹ ላይ እሳቸው ብቻ ናቸው የሚሰሩት።
They have part only in the developmental work. The work of the caves was Abba's alone.
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የለም።
no
እከሌ እከሌ የኔ አጋዦች ናቸው ቡድን ናቸው ብሎ የለም ልክ እንደ ቢሮ ስራ?
Does this mean that there was no assigning people as assistants, there was no bureaucracy?
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የስራውን አይነት እስቲ እንደገና ተመልሰን
Let us come back to discuss the work, as to how it was done
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አሁን እንዳልኮት ብናየው እያየነው ራሳችን እንረዳ ነበረ።
We would have in fact better understood it, if we had first seen it
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በደምብ ተስተካክሎ እንደዚህ ተለስልሶ ነው የተሰራው ነው ወይስ እንደው ጠረብ ጠረብ አይነት ስራ ነው?
Was it done nicely with a smooth finish, or was it carved just roughly
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ስራው በመሰረቱ
the work basically
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የእጅ ስራ ወይም ደግሞ ዘመኑን የሚገልፅ ስራዎች
was done manually. No modern instrument was used
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የለሰለሱና ሊሾ ሆኖ አሁን እንደምናየው ባለንበት ክፍል ውስጥ.. የዚህ አይነት መልክ አይኖረውም።
And so it can't be as smooth as the wall of this room in which we are
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ዶማዎቹ ያረፉበት ይታወቃል።
The spots where the pickaxes hit are noticeable
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እነሱ ቅርፅ ቅርፅ አላቸው።
they have their own shape
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በዚያ አይነት ሁኔታ ነው የለው።
it is like that
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ፊኒሺንግ የምንለው.. ሲጨረስስ የማሰማመር ስራ ተሰርቶለታል?
What about the finishing... was there any effort made to make it more attractive?
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ኦዎ፤ ለዚያ ቀጥታ መስመራቸውን
Yes, he made [ornamental?] lines for that
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በግድግዳውና በከፍታ በላይ በጣራም ቦታ
on the wall and on higher places on the roof too
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ያንን ጊዜያቱን የመጠነና ህሊናቸውን ያነሳሳ
in accordance with the time and as much as his thoughts initiated him
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የስራ ይዘት መጨረሻ "ይሄ ይበቃዋል ከዚህ በኋላ ደግሞ ሌላ ክፍል መስራት አለብኝ የሚለውን" በወቅቱ የተሰራ ነው።
The work came to an end, when he got to a point where he would say: "this is enough, I have to carve the next room"
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በምንድን ነበር የሚወጣው የተቆፈረው ፍርስራሹ?
What did he use to get rid of the crap?
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የተቆፈረው..
that which was dug...[was cast away]
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በአሁኑ ሰአት ወዛደሩ እንደሚጠቀምበት በባሬላ ነው።
using a cart, which laborers nowadays use
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እንዲሁም ደግሞ በማዳበሪያዎችም እየተቋጠሩ የሚያወጡ መንፈሳዊ እናቶችና ወንድሞችም አሉ በፀበል ቦታ ላይ።
Also some brothers and sisters who were there for holy waters used to help carry them off in sacks
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ያንን በረከት ስራ ለመሳተፍ የእግዚአብሄር ቤት የሚመለክበትን ህሙማኖች የሚፈወሱበትን ቦታ
wishing to take part in this work of blessing, where God is worshipped and the sick are cured
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ለበረከት ብለው አብረው የሚራዱ ነበሩ በዚያ ስራ ላይ።
they were helping in order to receive blessings.
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እና ተለክቶ ነበረ የሚሰራው ወይስ ስራው አንድ መልክ እስኪይዝ ዝም ብሎ ነበረ የሚቀጥለው?
So was it first measured or did the work continue until some shape emerged
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ቅድም እንዳልኩት ለዚህ ክፍል እና ለዚህ አገልግሎት መስጫ ይህ ይበቃዋል
As I said earlier, it was revealed to him that such and such a size was enough for such and such a purpose
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ተብሎ አስቀድሞ ለኛ ባይገለፅ ለሳቸው በተገለፀላቸውና
although it was not revealed for us
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ባሳሰባቸው መሰረት ነው የሚሰራው።
It is based on what was revealed to him
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ድንጋዩ ስም አለው በአማርኛ የሚታወቅ?
Does the type of stone have a name, in Amharic?
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የተቆፈረው ፍልፍሉ ድንጋይ? ይሄ ድንጋይ እንዲህ አይነት ድንጋይ ነው ተብሎ?
Can it be said that the cave was carved out of such and such kind of stone?
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አይ ልዩ ስም የለውም።
No, it does not have a special name
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ጠንካራው አለት ባይሆን ወደ ነጭ እና ቀላ ያለ መልክ ያለው ገደላማ ቦታ አለ።
Although it was not strong rock, there was a whitish and reddish cliff
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ነጣ ያለ መልክ ነው ያለው
It looks more whitish
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በር ስንት ነው ያለው ዳግማዊ ጎሎጎታ?
How many doors has the Second Golgota?
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በሮቹ አንድ አንድ በር ነው በብዛት የምናገኘው
Speaking of doors, we mostly find one door for each
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ሁለት በርም አለ፤ የምስራቅ በር የቤተ ክርስትያንን ይዘት ለመጠበቅም ሁለት
there are some which have two doors. East door, in keeping with the position of the Church
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ሌላው በሚስጥራት ደግሞ ዞሮ ውስጡ በራሱ
on the other hand, according to the internal mystery
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የሚታየው ቤተ ክርስትያን በፍልፍል ዋሻ በአንድ በር ነው ቅድም እንዳልነው
rockhewn Churches are known to have only one door
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ሁለት ሁለት በሮች ያሏቸው አሉ።
Some of them have two doors
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የአባ ሃርያቆስና ቅዱስ ኤፍሬም
the Chruch of Abba Heryaqos and that of St. Ephrem
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እንዲሁም ደግሞ የእመቤታችን ቤተ-መቅደስ እነዚያ ሁለት በሮች አሏቸው።
as well as the Second Church of our Lady (St. Mary) have two doors each
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መስኮትስ?
How about windows?
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መስኮት ያለው የመድሃኒአለም ቤተ-መቅደስ ብቻ ነው።
Only the Church of MadhaneAlem (the Holy Saviour) has a window
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በአንድ አቅጣጫ ነው መስኮታቸው።
the window is in one direction
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አበሮቹና የመስኮቶቹ ስፋትና ቁመት ይታወቃል?
Are the sizes of the doors and the windows known, their width and their height?
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ቁመትና ስፋተ ተለክቷል?
Were their widths and their heights measured?
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እንዲሁ በምናብ ስለን ስንገምተው ከሁለት ሜትር በላይ እንጂ ያነሰ አይደለም።
I can imagine that the doors would not be less than two meters, if not more
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መስኮቶቹም እነደዚሁ ብናየው እስከ አንድ ሜትር ድረስ።
and the window may be up to one meter high
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ውስጡ ምሰሶ አላቸው ወይስ..?
Are there pillars inside?
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ምሰሶ አላቸው።
Yes they have pillars
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በአራት መአዘን ነው።
It is rectangular
ቅርፁ ክብ ነው አራት መአዘን?
Is it circular or rectangular?
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ቁመታቸውም እንደዚህ ይታወቃል አልተለካም ገና? እንደተባለው የልኬት ስራ ብዙ አልተሰራም?
Is the size known or was it not measured yet? As has been said no measurement was taken?
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አዎ፤ ከ2.30-2.50 እንደዚያ ነው።
yes, it may from 2.30 - 2.50
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ደረጃዎችስ አሉ ውስጡ?
Are there stairs inside?
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ደረጃዎች የውስጥ ደረጃዎች አሉ አዎ።
Yes there are stairs inside
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ይታወቃል ቁጥራቸው?
How many steps are they?
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ሶስት፣ ሰባት፣ አስራ ሁለት እንደዚህ አይነት ቁጥር አላቸው።
three, seven, twelve, the number of steps are [symbolic] like this
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ቤተ-መቅደሱስ ክፍሎቹ? ክፍሎች አሉት?
Does the Church have sections?
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ክፍሎች አሉት።
It has sections
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ቅኔ ማክሌት ቅድስት መቅደስ ባልነው መሰረት እንዲሁም ደግሞ ደረጃዎች ወደ ምስራቅ በር የሚየያጣ፤ አሁን የእመቤታችን 21 ደረጃዎች አሉ።
"Qene Mahlet" (the section for the Choir), "Qeddest" (where Holy Communion is distributed) and the "Maqdas" (the sanctuary/the Holy of Holies). Also there are stairs that lead to the East side, like the ones of our Lady's (St. Mary's) Church which has twenty-one steps
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ዚግዛግ ቅርፅ ያላቸው።
in zigzag form
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በዚህ አይነት እለቷን የሚያመለክት 21 እመቤታችን መሆኑን።
symbolizing thereby her feast day , which is the 21st of the month
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የቅርፁ ግራና ቀኝ መሆኑን፤ የመድሃኒታችን እየሱስ ክርስቶስን መከራዎች፣
that the shape goes side to side symbolizes the suffering of our Saviour Jesus Christ
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ወደ ግራ ወደ ቀኝ ወደ ፊት ወደ ኋላ፣
towards left then to right, forwards then backwards
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ያንን ስቃይ በሱ ላይ እንደተገለፀበት፣
while he was suffering
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እንደ ገፈተሩት እንደ ጎተቱት ይህንን ሁሉ የሚያሳይ ማለት ነው በሚስጥራት።
as they pushed and pulled him, symbolizing all this
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መቀመጫስ ተሰርቶለታል ማረፊያ?
Are there seats, to rest?
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ማረፊያ እረፍት አለው አዎ።
yes there are seats
በተለይ ጥግ?
Especially at the back
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መቀመጫ አለው።
to rest
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ወንበሮቹ ሁለተ አይነት ወንበር፤
two types of chairs
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ልክ በተሻለ ሁኔታ በአሁኑ ሰአት እንዳሉ ወንበሮች የተቀረፀ አለ።
there are those which have been carved in the manner by which regular chairs are made
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የዘጠኙ ቅዱሳን ታሪክ የምናነሳበት
With the chairs is expressed the history of the Nine Saints
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ዘጠኙ ቅዱሳን ወደ ሃገራችን ገብተው የሰሩትን መልካም ስራና
we remember the story of the Nine Saints because they came to our country and have done good work
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የፍፃሜው ምእራፍ ላይ እንደደረሱና ለድህነት ምክንያት እንደሆኑ
they have accomplished a lot and have become a means for salvation
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ይህንን ሁሉ የሚገለፅበትም ክፍል አለ፤ ከመቀመጫዎቹ ጋራ ማለት ነው።
all these are depicted with the chairs
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ስለዚህ ቅርፁም ከታሪክ ጋር ግንኙነት አለው ማለት ነው?
So the shape is connected to history?
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እነዚህን ነገሮች ለመግለፅ በሚያስችል መጠን ነው ማለት ነው የተሰራው?
It was made to depict all this?
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አዎ።
yes
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የተሰራበት መሳሪያ?
What about the tool?
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የተሰራበት መሳሪያ ከመግቢያው ላይ እነዳነሳሁት
As I mentioned in the beginning, the tools used are
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ዶማ፣ ቅድፅ ማውጫ መጥረቢያ፣
pickaxle, axe,
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ከዚህ ሌላ አካፋና
and also shovel
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ያንን አፈሩ ከውስጥ የሚወጣበትን ያሉት እንደ ባሬላ የመሳሰሉት ማለት ናቸው።
things like a cart to take the refuse away
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አካፋ፣ ዶማ፣ መጥረቢያ ናቸው።
shovel, pickaxle, axe
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ይሄ አድቅቆ ለማሻ እንዲስተካከል ወይም ደግሞ
Was there another tool that grinds
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የሰላ እንዲሆን ሌላ መሳሪያ ነበረ?
or to make sharp?
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የመጥረቢያ አይነት ቅርፅ ያለው ነው።
that is shaped like an axe
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ለመሸከም ማንሳት ማስቀመጥ የሚደረገው በምን ነበር? በሙሉ በሰው ጉልበት ነው ሌላ ነገር ነበረ?
to carry off the crap, was it all done by human labour? or was there something else?
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በሰው ጉልበት ብቻ ነው።
it was all human labour
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ብርሃን ሰጪ ነገሮቹ በዚያ ሰአት ሲፈለፈል ኩራዝ በጋዝ ማለት ነው እና
kerosene lamp was used as a source of light while carving
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ጧፍ ሻማ እነዚህን የመሳደሰሉት ናቸው።
candle and the like
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ስራውን ግን ያሳያሉ እነሱ በደምብ በርተው?
was the light from these enough for the work?
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በወቅቱ መጠቀም የሚቻለው ይሄንን ነውና
we used what was available at the time
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ያንን አጓጉዘን ወደ ብርሃኑ ወጥተን በምንመለስበት ሰአት እንደገና
when we took away the dust and went back
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ጠንከር ያለ ጨለማ ነው የሚያጋጥመን ከብርሃኑ ስንመለስ።
the darkness would be even stronger as we came back from light
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እነኚህ ሁሉ ፈተናዎች አሉ።
there were many testing conditions
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እነዚህ በሚኖሩበት ሰአት ያለን ስራ በፅናት መወጣት ማለት ነው
perseverance was needed on our part
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ትልቁ የመንፈሳዊ ቦታ ለየት የሚያደርጋቸው።
This is the great distinguishing mark of a spiritual place
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መሰላልስ ትጠቀሙ ነበረ?
Did you use ladders?
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ሲጀምሩ አንዳንድ ቦታዎች ላይ ከውጪ ቀርፆ ለመግባት የውጪውን ክፍል ለማስተካከል መሰላል ይጠቀማሉ።
He used ladders, in the beginning while he was carving the outside part
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ከዚያ ውጪ በውስጥ በኩል ያሉት ባለው አቀራረፅ ይዘት ነው።
Other than that the inside part was carved in such a way
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ከላይ የሚደርሱበትን መጀመሪያ ከስር ያለውን መቆሚያ ነገር ሳያስወግዱ ነው።
that he would not lose ground to stand on before he had done the top part
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ከዚያ በኋላ ነው ከስር እየጨረሱ የሚሄዱት።
afterwards, he would continue carving down
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በመጀመሪያ ከላይ ከጣራው ካለቀ በኋላ ማለት ነው።
That is, after the roof part was done
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አዎ።
yes
ከላይ ወደ ታች ነው፤ ምክንያቱም በኋላ ጣሪያው ላይ ለመድረስ አይቻልም።
Do you mean it was done from top to bottom, because if not it would not be possible to reach the top?
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መለኪያ መሳሪያ ነበራቸው እንዴ እየለኩ ምን ያህል ቁመት.. ?
Did he have a tool for measurement? Did he measure the height?
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ሜትርን የተደገፈ ባይሆንም
Although he did not use a measuring tape
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ከሜትር ጋራ የሚስተካከልበት
he had the equivalent to it
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አባቶቻችን የሚቆጥሩት ዛሬ ባለው በተራቀቀውና በተለካው መሳሪያ አይነት ሳይሆን
our fathers used to make measurements not with sophisticated tools that are available nowadays
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ክንድ መስፈሪያ ነው።
they measured in cubits
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በክንድ የተለካ እንጨትን ይዞ ለዚያ ቦታ የሚያስፈልገውን ስፋትና ይዘት የሚመጥኑበት ነው።
so he measured a wooden rod in cubit and in turn used the rod as a measuring tool
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በዚህ አይነት ሁኔታ ነው የሚለኩት።
He was measuring in this way
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የቧንቧ መስመር የለም?
Was pipeline installed?
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የቧንቧና የኤሌክትሪክ መስመር?
Is there pipeline and electrical cable?
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አይ የለውም።
No, there isn't
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አሁን አለው ውስጡ ግን መብራት ተቀጠለለት?
How about now? Is there (electrical) light inside?
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መብራት በጀነሬተር..
light from a generator...
እዛ አይተናል እንግዲህ እነ ሳላ ማርያምጋ፤
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እንደቦታው ነው እንግዲህ እዚያ መብራት አልገባም።
It depends on the place. There is no electricity there.
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ጀነሬተር አለ።
there is a generator
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ከጀነሬተር የሚሳብ መብራት አለ።
there is light from the generator
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ድጋፍስ የተደረገ ነበረ መቆሚያ እንደዚህ ይደረግ ነበር?
Was there supporting frame used?
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ግድግዳውን የሚደግፍ? አሁን ህንፃ ሲሰራ ሲሚንቶ ሲሞላ በውጪው አለም ድጋፍ ይደረግለታል አይደል?
frame that supports the wall, like the supporting construction frames used in the outside world?
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ድጋፍ የለም።
There was no support
ቅርፅ እንዲይዝ?
to keep it in shape
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ቅድም ለመቆሚያ የሚያገለግለውን ለዚያ ይዘት መፈፀሚያ የሚያገለግለውን መጀመሪያ ከስር ያሉትን ነገሮች አስበው
As I said earlier, after having a ground for him to stand on, he would first finish whatever is needed to be done on top,
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ለስራው ማስፈፀሚያ የሚሆነውን ነገር መተው ከዚያ መጨረሻ ላይ ደግሞ የታችኛውን ክፍል ይጨርሳሉ ማለት ነው።
after that, he would finally make whatever was needed to be made at the bottom
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መጋዘንስ ነበራችሁ የምታስቀምጡበት?
Did you have store to keep stuff?
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ከዚያው ከፍልፍል ዋሻዎቹ
There itself, one of the caves
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ቤት ባልተሰራበትና ቦታው ባልተስፋፋበት ጊዜ
as houses were not yet built
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ከዚያው ከፍልፍል ዋሻው እንጠቀምበት ነበር።
we used one of the caves.
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እንጂ ሌላ የተለየ ለራሱ የተገነባ ህንፃ ሲሰራ እንደሚሰራው መጋዘን
So you did not have an independent store?
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ራሱን ችሎ የወጡ መጋዘን የለም።
the kind of store that people use when they construct a building?
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ከውጪ ያሰገባችሁት እቃ አለ እንዴ ስትሰሩ?
Did you bring anything from outside?
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ወይስ እዛው የራሱኑ ድንጋይ ተፈልፍሎ ወደ ውጪ ማውጣት ነው እንጂ ከውጭ ገብቶ ሲሚንቶ ይሆናል ሌላ የደረጃ ድንጋይ?
Or, was it that everything is carved from the stone and not even cement or anything like that was used from outside?
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የለም ዲዛይኑ ከህንፃ ጋራ የሚመሳሰለውም ከዚያው እየተቀረፀ ነው።
No, everything is similar in there because it was carved from the same.
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አትራኖስም መፅሃፍ የሚነበብበት ከዚያው የተቀረፀ ነው።
Even the pulpit was carved from there
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የሚቀመጡበትም እረፍት ለአባቶች ከዚያው የተፈለፈለ ነው።
the chairs for the fathers to rest were carved as well
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ከዚያው ነው የተቀረፁት።
they were all carved from the same.
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ከውጪ የገባ ነገር የለም።
Nothing came from outside.
እንጂ ምንም ከውጪ የገባ ነገር የለም?
So nothing was brought in from outside?
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ሲጀመር እዛው ነበሩ ከየት እንዴት እንደተጀመረ አቆፋፈሩ?
Were you there from the beginning? Where did the digging start?
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ከበር ነው ከምንድነው ከበስተቀኝ ከ....?
Was it from the door, on the right...?
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ሲጀመር አዎ ስላለው ቅድም ተነጋግረናል።
We have talked earlier about the beginning.
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እንዳነሳሁትም ከዛው ደብረ ከርቤ ጎሎጎታ ገዳም ሲገባ
As I mentioned, when our father [Aba Gabra Kidan] joined Dabra Karbe Golgota,
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ከአባታችንጋ በቅርብ አብሬ ነበርኩ።
I was with him, very closely
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ሲጀመር በርን ለመግቢያ በአንድ ጠባብ በኩል ተቀርፆ ይገባና
In the beginning a door was carved out from a narrow side
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በይዘት ለበር መግቢያ እንደሚያገለግል
so that it would serve as an entrance
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ከዚያ በኋላ ቅርፁን ስፋቱን ግራና ቀኙን እያሰፉና ፊለፈት እያገፉ/እየቆፈሩ መሄድ ማለት ነው።
then the carving continues on left and right, and in front of us, digging on all [three] sides.
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እና ከመካከል የሚያሳስባቸውንም የሚስጥራተ ቤተ ክርስትያን ቅርፅ እያወጡ
creating all the while the shapes of all necessary things for the Church where he envisioned them
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ለቤተ መቅደሱ የሚያስፈልገውን ነገር የሚጨርሱት
all the necessary things for the Church
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እዛው ካለው የሚፈለፈል ዋሻ ነው ወይም ድንጋይ ነው።
are carved out there itself from the same stone
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እና በሩ ይጀመራል፤ ጣሪያው ነው መጀመሪያ ከጣሪያው ወደታች ነው የሚሄደው።
So it began with the door, would he then continue from the roof downwards?
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ከቀኝ ወደ ግራ ከግራ ወደ ቀኝ የሚባል ነገር አለ?
from right to left and then from left to right?
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ቀኝ ነው እንግዲህ ብዛት ስራ የምንንቀሳቀስበት እና ቀኙን ይዞ በቀኝ በኩል ዞሮ
it is on the right that we move a lot working, we turn around working towards the right side
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በሁለቱም አቅጣጫ እያስተካከሉ ይሄዳሉ ማለት ነው።
and he would continue leveling on both sides.
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ማስተካከል ማለት በአይን ነው ወይስ በሌላ ዘዴ አላቸው?
would he do the leveling just by seeing or did he have another method?
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